how on earth do I draw with the shoulder?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/tgkwh8/how_on_earth_do_i_draw_with_the_shoulder/
2022-03-17 21:32
Zapaeryan
i've tried to ditch the wrist like the lessons tell me to, but I can't even make basic short makes with decent precision with my shoulder. it just feels so awkward and every line I make falls entirely off its track. I've tried the ghosting and overlayed lines exercises but they don't help at all cuz I think my arm is just too shakey to get any of it right.
could someone please give me some help or advice on how to actually get this down? my lines are super shakey and inaccurate so any other tips on mastering markmaking would be fantastic as well.
Uncomfortable
2022-03-17 22:43
Your comments actually provide a lot of useful information here. You talk a lot about achieving precision/accuracy, and that in pursuing that, you're ending up with a lot of shaky lines.
Drawabox right from the beginning actually sets up very clear priorities - first, we focus on achieving a smooth, confident stroke, then we worry about accuracy. If your lines are wobbly, then that suggests that you're prioritizing accuracy first, which is totally normal, but not in line with the instructions.
Drawing confidently, as well as executing the marks using your whole arm from the shoulder, will definitely undermine your accuracy. That's okay, and by design.
Even the use of the ghosting method, which seeks to reinforce that accuracy with the planning/preparation phases, still demands a confident execution - meaning the second your pen touches the page, you must not hesitate. You must push through and commit to the motion, regardless of whether or not it goes wrong.
Smooth marks are something we can achieve by changing our approach, by focusing on confident executions over hesitation (which is at its core, a choice we make every time we make a mark). Accuracy, however, comes with practice - but you mustn't worry about it until you're able to take control of your choices, and make confident strokes regardless of your fears.
I cannot stress this enough though - what you're experiencing is normal. What we're doing here are exercises, and so it's not about what you're able to achieve right now, but rather applying those instructions to the letter and then holding to it over days, weeks, and months as you progress through the course.
Keep-benaize
2022-03-17 22:49
Try to just get the elbow off the table, this will make you use your shoulder more. Then do fast gestures because it is easier to make stable lines. Then with time, you will get stronger muscles and nerve memory and you will be able to do more complex lines.
instrumentation_guy
2022-03-17 23:41
Try setting up a drawing board angled more vertical than horizontal. Hold your entire arm somewhat stiff like everything from below the shoulder down is in a cast and swiver from the shoulder.
herefor1reason
2022-03-17 23:42
You learn to do it by doing the lessons...Ok, I know how unhelpful that sounds, I'll try to elaborate. So drawing with my shoulder is something I struggled with, but by doing the superimposed lines, ghosting, and table of ellipses exercises, a lot, I built up an understanding of it. Explaining how to use certain muscles is difficult, because you don't really have to think to do it. When you walk, you don't think to yourself "Ok, now I'll lift this leg while balancing on this other leg and placing it in the direction I want to go to shift my weight forward", you just move your legs and walk.
What others have said here is important, elbow off the table, that alone will go a long way, but it'll still feel like you're using your elbow too much, you won't feel that control over your movement like you expect to be able to from doing the lessons right away. Do short lines, shorter than you think you need to. You're not just practicing to do lines in general at first, you're practicing drawing the same line the same way over and over. The SAME line, not a similar one, the same, identical line to the first. Rest your hand at the starting position, and draw only the direction your line is going, returning to rest at the starting position. This will give you the directionality needed for line confidence. You're going one way, drawing one line. Then, ghosting lines, you're doing the same motion, but over the paper until you put your pen down to actually place the line. I haven't quite gotten far in ellipses but I know that the last time I practiced, it was doing a table that helped it fully click.
I don't know if this is a universal thing, but when I got it right, my deltoid muscle and shoulder blade muscles started to clinch. I wasn't clinching myself, you can't force it (I have tried), but I started using my shoulder to control my arm's movement and my lines got REALLY smooth and flowing.
Remember, start really small. Elbow above the table, hand resting at the starting point. Draw away from the starting point in a single motion. What really helped on the superimposed lines was this video. I used the vertical line as sort of training wheels to help me get used to the motion itself without having to think about where I'd place my pen. Really short lines, so you can be sure you're lining them up properly and practicing that consistent motion. They'll fray, it's fine, you'll work those muscles and it'll happen less.
Minerva_vic
2022-03-17 23:46
Use the entire arm rather than only hand, you draw more efficiently
My friend draw use only the hand and he cant draw long straight line because of it or having a hard time doing it
Zapaeryan
2022-03-18 00:14
Ive already been doing that. Using my elbow feels even more awkward.
Minerva_vic
2022-03-18 00:18
Maybe this will help explain it
circadiankruger
2022-03-18 02:55
That video didn't help me personally as he is drawing big things and I can do that, what I can't do is draw short lines with the shoulder
Minerva_vic
2022-03-18 03:01
For me i just do it faster, one single fast smooth line
Maybe is the way you holding the pencil or something making it awkward to hold
PiersPlays
2022-03-18 00:18
If it's shakey you're still moving too slowly. Make larger faster movements. You'll end up with a curve that ends in the wrong place but it'll be a nice smooth one. Then just keep practising until it becomes easier to control.
[deleted]
2022-03-18 00:23
You dont have to solely use your shoulder. But its better for larger, wider, more fluid strokes. Your wrist can still be used for shorter marks and lines. No reasons to force yourself to 100% use the shoulder for that unless you want to.
Zapaeryan
2022-03-18 00:31
I mean, Im super shaken with both of the but most the tips Ive seen seem to only work with the shoulder so idk
[deleted]
2022-03-18 00:37
Id say keep going with learning to use your shoulder I kept at it for awhile back when I was in HS and it felt terrible the entire way but ultimately it made doing longer lines a lot easier. But dont stress yourself about dedicating every stroke you do with the shoulder, its not always necessary. And give all of your learning and drawing time, lots of time. I used to spent all summer angry and frustrated trying to draw with my shoulder and it looking horrible. Now things I draw look a lot more confident because I took that time to practice. Just keep at it, its frustrating as fuck but itll get better.
brainwashable
2022-03-18 01:38
an exercise that could be helpful is working without trying to make form. just abstract fluid mark-making to build up some muscle memory/confidence. Don't care what it looks like for the moment. shut your eyes and feel a few lines; They are not precious.
rebornAophia
2022-03-18 02:47
Changing the way I hold the pencil helped me. Instead of holding it as if you were going to write a text, hold it so your hand is up and to the side. I don't know how to explain it by text, but it's like Proko holds a pencil. Watch some anatomy videos of him and you'll see.
At first it is very uncomfortable, but over time you will gain strength.
digitalvoidx
2022-03-18 10:41
I think that certain lines call for different ammount of arm usage, like don't try to draw a short line with your whole arm It won't work. The way I think feels most natural is in this order: Really short lines with the fingers, Short lines with the rist, medium lines with the elbow, very long lines with the whole arm. I am a guy with long arms, I have to draw in a position that allows me to move my arm without bumping my elbow or I won't be able to draw a single line properly. What I found for myself is that your arm has to be bent in a close to 90 degree angle as possible, if it's stretched way forward and/or you bend your elbow to the side it feels really uncomfortable.
scarlettinthewood
2022-03-18 11:15
What worked for me was viewing this drawing exercise as an actual exercise, and working out my shoulder muscles. You shoulder and its movement is connected to both the front pectoral and the back muscles, so understanding and strengthening these can help you access how to draw from your shoulder. Standing up and drawing at an easel will also help you understand this as your arm gets tired!
Another exercise that drums the point for me is phsically holding my arm at the wrist, and seeing the range of movement, and then holding it above the elbow, and seeing the range of movement, then let go and wave your whole arm. Wrist is writing, elbow is quick arcs, but the shoulder is a full waving motion - graceful, like a dance.
Kuboidsketch
2022-03-18 14:59
I had this issue for awhile. What helps me is stretching out my shoulders and arms in the morning. It helps to actually feel my muscles move and get in touch with those parts.
Youre also not supposed to worry about precision until after you are drawing your lines smoothly and confidently and worry about accuracy later (correct me if Im wrong anyone)
You might benefit from taking a blank page and drawing quickly a couple of lines with no markers to guide you or anything and just feel your shoulder muscles as youre doing it. Dont think about how it looks or anything, like if its shaky just move past
Codover
2022-03-18 18:57
This sounds silly but hear me out. What seriously helped me with the mind-muscle connection of conciously using my shoulder was pull-ups, dips, rows, and copious amounts of stretching. If you're having a super hard time and your desperate to get better quickly, try stretching to feel your shoulder. Shoulder rotations and chest expansions. Maybe finish off with a lat stretch. Just my incredibly, no drawing ability, novice, two cents with a healthy dose of salt. Someone tell me if I'm giving crappy advice.
Zapaeryan
2022-03-17 22:50
I see, I see. Accuracy has been my main focus so I guess leaning towards that too much has done more harm than good. How exactly can I make my lines more confident though? Apart from the ghosting method it doesnt sound like the kind of thing you can really practice.
There is one more issue though: Ive noticed that my hand is really really shakey when I hover it over my paper. heres a video I made showing what I mean.. Is this natural or could some neurological issues be a play? Because apparently, hand treamors are a side effect of SSRIs that Ive been taking for years now so I really hope this crap isnt permanent
Uncomfortable
2022-03-17 22:57
To your first question, if you grab a piece of paper and just strike across it with marks as fast as you can, you'll notice that they're going to come out smoothly, by virtue of not having had any chance for your brain to try and steer those strokes (which results in wobbles). So making confident strokes is really just a matter of keeping your brain from trying to steer the mark - which we can do most easily by simply drawing quickly, but I prefer using the wording of "confidently" since with practice, we'll be able to reduce that speed and regain some of the lost control.
But you're right in a sense that drawing confident strokes isn't something you learn, because it's something you already know how to do. There's just a lot of additional crap that's built up around it, that you need to scrape away - like the previous focus on drawing accurately (which is the case for everyone at this stage, especially those for whom this is not their first attempt at learning to draw).
As to the shaking, from the video it doesn't actually look like you're encountering shaking that is any more significant than anyone else. But what I do see is that your hand is floating in the air, which definitely would result in shaking for anyone, since there's no support or grounding.
While the lessons should definitely be done traditionally in ink as explained here (keep in mind that our only focus is to teach you how to draw - not to teach the use of any specific tools, and the use of ink simply helps to reinforce the concepts we teach here, making the course vastly more effective), what I explain here about hover-handing (and the fact that it's perfectly okay to rest your hand gently against the page) applies to digital media as well. I'm a digital artist myself, and I rest my hand against my display tablet all the time, for the stability it provides. Some people feel like it creates unpleasant friction/dragging, but the cheap "artist gloves" (which have the index/middle/thumb cut out) can help reduce that.
Zapaeryan
2022-03-18 00:20
Theres been a few times Ive had when drawing superimposed lines on my sketch pads where Im somehow able to get in the zone and make the exact same strokes after practicing for a while. The thing is Im never able to Carry it over to my actual art or commit it to muscle memory and when I start drawing again after a break Im back to square one. Am I doing something right there that I should double down on and if so, what?
Apart from that though, what Ive really been struggling with have been drawing curves accurately and confidently. All the problems Ive had with straighter lines are even worse with curved ones, which is frustrating since theyre much more commonly used in the sort of art I do. Im not so sure if youve covered them much so do you have any tips specifically for them?
Uncomfortable
2022-03-18 00:30
While I don't know what time scale you're working at here (did you just start the course, or have you been at it for days, weeks, months, etc.) but context suggests that you're pretty early on. This is not a course that's going to make a visible difference in a short period of time. The quickest any of my students have completed the course without rushing is more in the frame of 5-6 months. The farther end of the spectrum goes to a year, and some have even taken 2 years and more.
What Drawabox does is through the exercises, it changes the way in which your subconscious approaches drawings, it develops your habits and your instincts. Realistically when drawing, our mind should be focused on design, on composition, on solving problems. The simpler matters of where our lines fall, how we execute them so they go where we want and behave as intended - this is all stuff that is handled under the surface.
But we get there by spending months being extremely intentional, here, throughout these lessons and exercises. That's how those instincts develop. But of course, it all takes time, and I get the impression that your expectations are a little more optimistic about how long it'll take than what would be realistic.
Zapaeryan
2022-03-18 00:55
Alright, I get what youre saying. Ill try to work through the course now, but itd be nice to have some exercises specifically for curved lines to practice as well.
Regardless, I really appreciate you clearing things up for me