The Future of Free Critiques on /r/ArtFundamentals
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/54l9rj/the_future_of_free_critiques_on_rartfundamentals/
2016-09-26 15:55
Uncomfortable
Like my other posts on the state of this subreddit, I'm going to talk and whine a lot up here, and the main meat of the post will be at the bottom.
As I mentioned in my State of the Union post about a month ago, the approach I've had for handling homework critiques is unsustainable. We all knew that going in, and I'm pretty surprised that I was able to keep up with it for two full years. Hell, in the Last 12-13 months I've hit nearly 1850 critiques. Some of these critiques are short and sweet - "You did great, just keep an eye on this and this, feel free to move on and consider the lesson complete." Many others have required a much more in-depth explanation of what went wrong and how to go about fixing it. Others still require me to draw out actual step-by-step demonstrations of tackling a particular problem.
The biggest fear was that I would burn out - so I started taking breaks. Sort of. In the last two years I've never actually dropped everything and said, "VACATION TIME LEAVE ME ALONE." Instead, my breaks were more from free critiques, which cut down my monthly submissions from 150-200 down to about 40-50, a significantly more manageable number. The problem with 150-200 is that if I miss a day for whatever reason, dealing with the backlog of just a single day is a nightmare. It's like being held hostage by your workload. 40-50 means that you can probably take a couple days off without worrying too much, and you won't be buried when you get back.
This is especially important when, say, I have to go for gum surgery like I did last week and the next couple days are spent in considerable pain.
So, this month has been one of those 'break' months, meaning that critiques were limited to those who support drawabox (with any pledged amount, even a dollar). I expected to get, again, 40ish submissions through the course of the month. We're a few days short of the end of the month and we're pushing 80.
What does this tell me? Demand is tooooooo damn high. Things need to change... like now. Last month I suggested limiting free critiques to a set number of people chosen by lottery every month, but that's not going to work, as there are more people willing to pay for critiques than I initially expected. We'll just end up in the same hole. Or I will end up in the same hole, anyway.
So here's what's going to happen:
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Free critiques will reopen October 1st and will close indefinitely at the end of October 7th (11:59PM PST). After this point, homework critiques will be limited to patreon supporters with a pledge of at least $3. I hate the idea of putting a minimum amount, but at this point what I pretty much need to do is 'fire customers'. The video recordings of the lesson demos will still be available to all patrons, as they are now.
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This brief period is for those of you who waited through September patiently, holding onto your homework submission and waiting for the doors to reopen. As long as you get your homework submitted by the end of the 7th, you will receive a critique. I'm expecting a massive backlog during that time, so it'll be slow going while I pick through everything, but you will have your work reviewed. Just remember that you are not allowed to submit multiple assignments together. You must finish one lesson, wait for it to be marked as complete, then start the next one. Don't expect to be able to quick-fire your submissions, as this will only increase my workload with very little real benefit to you (since you wouldn't have the chance to implement corrections from the first critique).
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I will be opening a sister subreddit - this one will be open for users to make their own posts. /r/ArtFundamentals honestly hasn't really been community oriented - it's been more of a Dinner with Uncomfortable. Honestly that isn't the way it should be. You guys should be talking to each other, looking at each others' work and learning to critique yourselves. So this subreddit will be completely dedicated to discussions involving Drawabox lessons, any questions you may have, as well as full homework submissions for the community to critique. I'll be active here as well, but mostly to make sure no one's being steered in the wrong direction. So if I happen to make corrections on your critique, don't feel bad - your efforts are always appreciated, but sometimes we just get things wrong. I myself do it all the time!
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I would like to start doing regular (or semi-regular) Q/A threads. What this means is, I will open a thread on /r/ArtFundamentals where anyone and everyone will be free to post questions they have relating to the lessons. This can be anything ranging for minor queries to "I have no idea how to approach drawing this goat for lesson 5," or "I drew this thing for lesson 6 and I don't understand what's wrong with it." This Q/A thread will be open to for a set number of hours before being locked, so it is a time-sensitive thing. In advance, I will actually schedule the event on the drawabox Facebook page so if you're interested, you may want to follow it. A few days after the thread, I will post a video answering as many of the questions as I can. Since this is open to everyone, I won't be requiring proof of completion of the prerequisites prior to the relevant lesson. That said, since I am likely to receive more questions than I can answer, the more legitimate questions, and those that would generally help more people will be given a higher level of priority. This won't start until at least late October.
Also, as you've probably noticed I've continued to make large updates to the Dynamic Sketching lessons, mainly creating video-based explanations of the bigger challenges people face in each lesson, really emphasizing the importance of construction and how it relates to each individual subject matter. I think that investing my time in improving the lesson content itself, rather than in the free critiques is what will have the greatest value in the long run.
I'm currently just one lesson short of updating all of the dynamic sketching content. After that, I may take a short break, then I'm hoping to completely rewrite the figure drawing content, which I feel is poorly structured and not particularly well demonstrated. That'll take some time to be sure, and once that's done I'll have to find some other direction to move in.
That's pretty much I all have to say for now. If you have any comments, questions, concerns, or just want to call me a greedy money-grubber, you can feel free to do so below.
atom4sh
2016-09-26 16:02
I think I'm gonna subscribe. Art is something that I really want to pursue and you've been really helpful with that. I struggle with finding my own guidance so you've been super helpful.
Do Patreon subscribers get any 1-on-1 time or is it just critiques? Are their tiers? There's a post describing this somewhere, so I'm going to go find it.
edit: actually, I cant find any posts on this.
disies
2016-09-26 16:27
I was actually thinking about paying more.. It would help me to keep at it, because lately I'm pretty lazy on that matter.. Even though you end free critiques, all your work, the lessons and the forum itself will stay online (I suppose?) and many will be thankful for that.
And don't forget to recover from surgery between all that work!
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 16:43
Haha, thank you! I can't wait to get these stupid stitches out and for this gash in the roof of my mouth to close so I can go back to eating all kinds of wonderful solid foods. Popcorn... Hamburgers... Drools quietly
denunciadolince
2016-09-26 16:53
Well, it's still not as bad as it'd sound considering we've still got all the critiques you've done already. I'm sure as hell reading what other people did wrong helped me realize I was making the same mistake and wasn't even aware of it. Hopefully no one wants Drawabox to become a 'How many critiques does it take to kill a Uncomfortable' quest.
And also I think from now until the 7th people are gonna get really pumped up in finishing the lessons. I've been stuck in Lesson 5 for months now but I'll at least try to get my last fix, yo.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 19:20
Hahah, yeah, between the 1st and the 7th, I'm definitely going to get flooded, but at least that has an end point in sight. That'll keep me going.
Miggery
2016-09-26 16:58
Well it was nice to get some direction while it lasted. Tho I'll admit I'll still look at your material every once in a while.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 19:21
I certainly hope so! My goal is still to make the lessons clear and structured enough that people can follow them on their own without much additional help. Might be a bit of a lofty target, but we'll see how close I get.
Miggery
2016-09-27 09:21
Hey what you're doing is every self-taught aspiring artist's dream and that's direction from someone in the industry so even if it's a lofty target, the people you've critiqued definitely appreciate it.
Also from one artist to another, try and get Scott Roberttson's book How to Draw. Since you're in the industry and you took some classes you might not need it but it could help you put some new content or improve your content by using it as a reference.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 14:29
Ahaha, I've had that book close to my heart since I was attending classes at CDA. I think I bought it right after I finished off Vis Com: Dynamic Sketching in my first term. I still keep it around, and go through it regularly whenever I'm struggling with technical perspective issues, which is one of my weaker areas. You're absolutely right, it's an excellent reference. One of the new videos I made recently, about ellipses in planes, is pretty much all pulled from there.
gmarcc
2016-09-26 17:01
First of all i'd like to thank you for creating drawabox. The work you've accomplished with this website is truly amazing and i am infinitely grateful for it. You make me believe that one day i'll be able to create all the wonderful illustrations i'm dreaming about. What you have done with drawabox.com is, i believe, genuinely unique. Nowhere in books or in the internet have i found a clear, step by step, concrete path to learning how to draw. There's that, and then the fact that you went above and beyond what you needed to do by offering everyone free critiques and words of encouragement.
Now everything is not sugar and rainbow and as you said, drawabox success must be crushing, and that's perfectly understandable. I feel the way you're going is the best one. Even if i'm still at the beginning of my learning process i will most definitely try to help other beginners in the sister subreddit. I get that the vast majority of submissions you were getting until now were from the first few lesson. I also feel that critiquing these can definitely be handled by the community. Only the most determined students will push on to more complex topics. If they feel they need your help, 3$ seems like an extremely low price tag that anyone involved enough won't think twice about. Bottom line is : thank you so much, you're certainly not a money grabbing asshole, i need to learn how to make paragraphs.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 19:24
Haha, thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words. It's really nice to see how supportive the community is in all this. I'm also very glad to hear that my work has been able to help you.
watchingmidnight
2016-09-26 17:39
Thanks for all you've been providing!
I read many of the state of the union posts and don't remember them now (so the following idea may have been brought up), but maybe something in the future you could consider is also a "sponsor a free critique" level on patreon - say, the $3 level gets you a critique, but the $10 level gives you and one random (by lottery?) person a critique.
You're definitely not a money-grubber in any sense, just showing that there needs to be an economy of sorts. And I (and many others I'm sure) are totally grateful for the resource you're providing.
I'm looking forward to the Q&A since at least one question I have hasn't seemed to be answered when glancing through Lesson 1 critiques.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 19:33
That's actually a very interesting idea! I'll definitely take it into consideration.
WriterSplat
2016-09-26 18:19
Makes sense to me. You put a shit - ton of work into all this. I think it'd be best for you to get some compensation.
WinglessViva
2016-09-26 19:20
Just wanted to say thank you for all you've done so far, and I understand your need to change things up. I really like the idea of a sister subreddit!
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 19:34
Yeah, I think encouraging the whole community aspect of things is definitely the way to go.
Tis_Unfortunate
2016-09-26 20:18
Holy shit, ow. Your poor mouth. You doing ok?
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:18
): It hurts. But it's feeling better than it has been for the past week, I think it's finally healing up. I can't wait until I can eat proper food!
Tis_Unfortunate
2016-09-27 04:14
I'm trying really hard not to make a "texture challenge" joke right now.
Tis_Unfortunate
2016-09-29 02:40
Oh wait! I got all distracted by my own cleverness (WHAT) and forgot to put the actual comment part, which is: dude, if you ever want a real live vacation -- as in, n days/weeks/months without any critiques at all, not even for a million ice creams -- dude, take the vacation. Don't even think about not.
You have a huge fanboi happy subscriber base at this point, and I'm pretty damn sure that nobody will begrudge you some for real time off. We know you're (mostly?) human. And you/the subreddit/drawabox are so unique, and so uniquely suitable for your particular demographic audience, that we'll wait while you go on a worldwide tour of crunchy-thing gastronomy.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-29 02:41
We know you're (mostly?) human
The truth is... I'm actually a box.
Tis_Unfortunate
2016-09-29 02:45
...and you delight in making poor sods draw YOUR FACE 250 times over!? You probably wallpaper your house with them too! You utter megalomaniac!
RegisPL
2016-09-26 20:19
First of all, thanks for all your work so far - you're putting a huge amount of work in this course and you simply deserve a compensation. While I had to put my drawing temporarily "on hold" because of limited time (kids...), I'd be definitely back for more as this is - hands down - the best online "beginner+" drawing course ever.
[deleted]
2016-09-26 20:35
You might want to cross post your announcement to /r/Drawing since you are a very common recommendation over there.
I'm kind of bummed, but I completely understand. I will be looking forward to the sister subreddit. I like your lessons on your website although I never submitted any of my work here. I think you are being completely reasonable in trying to keep the lessons available while also maintaining your sanity. Have you thought of limiting critiques to like a certain number a month? Like if someone does the $3 level they can do one submission for critique a month and maybe at $10 they can do two? That might also help in reducing the workflow while still allowing those who are serious to still be able to receive critiques from you (through Patreon).
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:22
Really! I didn't actually know that this subreddit was shared a lot at /r/drawing. I guess I should be paying more attention there - I tend to focus more on /r/learnart and /r/learntodraw. That said, I'm worried that posting there about a different subreddit (and especially considering that bit about the sister subreddit I'll be creating) might step on peoples' toes. I'll probably just make this shift clear on /r/ArtFundamentals and on the drawabox website instead so people are made fully aware before investing their time.
Also, your idea about the various tiers being attached to a different number of submissions definitely makes a lot of sense. I'm expecting the workload to continue to expand as drawabox continues to spread - so this idea will definitely come in handy in the future when I want to try and decrease the number of submissions without raising that minimum.
[deleted]
2016-09-26 22:32
There are a lot of beginners who ask where to start and your website is often a suggestion by other members. Totally understand about not wanting to step on any toes. Probably best not too. They will find out about the critique process easily enough from your website and sub.
[deleted]
2016-09-26 20:41
Well, since im only 60/250 done with the Box Challenge, i guess this deadline will work as great motivation to do more than 15 boxes a night haha
Anyway, this Patreon thing will be good, we dont want you dying on us from over-critiqueing
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:23
Haha, push itttt. I'm sure you can do more than 15 a night. Ramp it up to 25 a night and you should be able to make it!
[deleted]
2016-09-26 22:45
Im totally going to do that now!
Time to shift into...
MAXIMUM ARTDRIVE
gleb_vga
2016-09-26 21:03
Well, I guess it's a good time to finally start submitting homework))
Seriously, though, thank you for all your work so far. And, especially, thank you for not stopping this all completely. I'm happy that my humble donations are helping such an amazing project to stay alive. The whole concept of being able to learn to draw in a structured and practical way is one of the things that kept me going through the last year, personally, and the way you handle the business is truly inspiring.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:23
Goodness - you're one of drawabox's biggest supporters, it's surprising that you haven't submitted anything yet. You definitely should! You've certainly paid for that right, at the very least.
gleb_vga
2016-09-27 20:40
Indeed I should.) My discovery of DrawABox coincided with a start of a really crazy year. Basically, I've started with lines and such, and, probably, for the first time in my life, I've found that I can get some pleasure in drawing lines. I had real issues with being unable to put any line on paper in a way I wanted to - always askew, or chicken-scratch, etc.. and saw no way to remedy that. Your instructions were refreshingly clear and practical, and that helped to break the block. But then work-life balance went to hell, to the point I barely could find half an hour now and then to ghost a few lines, and the progress stuttered, naturally. Sitll, the aspiration and the thought that I'd still get into the groove helped me to get through that time. And for this, I have to thank you. I think many people find your lessons inspiring in the same way.
Lobachevskiy
2016-09-26 21:47
Well hey, I guess I made a right choice by upping my pledge to $3 a month ago :D
Honestly you deserve more for what you're doing. As I was reading this, I actually didn't expect all of the efforts to keep free content going - like q&a and sister subreddit. That's a pretty solid solution all around.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:25
Haha, yes, that was quite fortuitous. Strangely enough, I've been getting a lot of $3 pledges lately, it's like everyone knew what was coming... somehow.
core999
2016-09-26 22:17
Do you know if a person can still take Dynamic Sketching with Peter Han in person? Or does he only do that through CGMA now? You said you spent what 6 months with him? How much was that? This isn't really related to your post at all but oh well. I'm guessing you had to have some kind of portfolio to show you can actually draw at all?
Anyway I had no idea you've been doing this for free for over two years. It looks like a few people have made it to the figure drawing section?
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 22:31
From the looks of it, you can still take Vis Com 1: Dynamic Sketching with Peter at Concept Design Academy in Pasadena, CA. It's a 10 week course, costs $770 USD. Deeeefinitely worth every cent, and actually you don't need a portfolio in order to get into the class. It's just first come first served. The other instructor, Patrick Ballesteros, is also fantastic.
I actually only took one term with him, but I spent a total of 6 months at CDA. The course itself takes you from the very basics, so you're not expected to have any significant experience with drawing beforehand. You just need to be willing to listen carefully to everything he teaches, work your ass off when it comes to the weekly homework assignments, and try and take advantage of every second you have one-on-one with him when he looks over your work.
I definitely recommend it for anyone who's interested in getting their fundamentals in order, and hoping to one day become a professional artist in some capacity, but especially for those interested in the entertainment industry.
Also yeah, a few people have made it to the figure drawing material, but honestly it's really not that great. The lessons evolve over time, and I guess since there's been far less activity on that end, I've had less of a chance to put it through its paces. That said, I do plan to completely scrap that section and rewrite it with what I've learned thus far from critiquing those who have made it there.
[deleted]
2016-09-26 22:53
[deleted]
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 23:11
Deeeefinitely. I mean, first of all, who the fuck am I. I'm just some imbecile who took his course for ten weeks. Initially drawabox started off as me parroting what I understood of Peter's methodology, along with all of the things I misunderstood. At this point, it's branched out a fair bit. A lot of the initial basics are the same, but once you get to lesson 3 and onwards, I focus a lot more on solid construction and form. Peter's course has a lot of that to be sure, but in my experience, his approach to construction feels more fluid, and he has a lot more to offer in terms of texture and detail. I think my lessons are a good starting point, and I might even recommend someone do drawabox before committing your money, but I'd definitely strongly encourage everyone who has the time and the funds to take Peter's course afterwards, especially if you're looking to build a career out of this. Ultimately if for whatever reason you had to pick one course, Peter's would win every time with its hands tied behind its back.
He's a proper instructor, respected by countless professionals in the industry today. I am still a student.
core999
2016-09-27 04:04
Is that what you took with him? I'll have to do some research on their website on when that starts again. Their course structure seems pretty strange, like if you want to take multiple things at once they are all on the same time on sunday and the foundational courses require other foundational courses first.... Did you have to apply for a visa or anything? I'm also from Canada. How many of these courses were you taking at the same time? Sorry for all the questions.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 14:18
Yup, that's what I took. They have a term in the fall (starts early October), a term in winter (starts early February) and a term in spring (starts early June). CDA's not a standard, accredited school - they don't have set programs (though they do have suggested curriculum structures you could choose to follow). In my experience (I don't know if they've changed their policies but I highly doubt it) there are very few courses with actual prerequisites, if any - so I'm not sure what you're referring to about foundational courses requiring other foundational courses.
Since they're not accredited, they're not able to give out student visas - that said, as Canadians we can be in the United States for up to 6 months out of every 12 under the visa waiver program (which is basically a tourist visa). This is applicable to taking short-term instructional courses, so there's no issue there (as long as you don't plan to work while you're down there). The only problem is that between terms there's a month long break - I went back home during that time, and then came back for the following term. Following this approach, you can take two consecutive terms.
At least for me, 2 courses per term was ideal, though it depends a lot on which courses you're taking as some are more work-heavy than others. During my first term, I overloaded a bit and registered for four - Vis Com: Dynamic Sketching (with Peter Han), Analytical Figure Drawing (with Kevin Chen), Sketching for Environment (with Ed Li) and Intro to Perspective (don't remember who taught this one). I ended up dropping intro to perspective after the first class (got a 50% refund), because I had definitely bitten off way more than I could chew (technical perspective is VERY work-intensive). Learning how to use technical perspective is definitely hugely important, but I had a limited amount of time and I felt that Vis Com gave me what I needed in that area. I still don't regret that decision, although there are times where I could do with a stronger understanding of technical perspective. Over the course of the term, I also ended up moving focus away from Sketching for Environment as I didn't feel like I was benefitting as much from my time investment there as I was from Vis Com.
All in all, this first term was spent focusing on relearning my fundamentals and sorting through the disorganized mess my current skill set had become. If I had to do it again, I'd probably just stick to Vis Com and Analytical Figure Drawing, both invaluable and fantastic courses taught by exceptional instructors.
The second term was spent on more intermediate topics - I took only two courses, Environment Design (with James Paick) and Intro to Form Language (with John Park). Neither of these instructors teach there anymore -they went and founded their own school, the Brainstorm School which is another option. There's no reason you can't take classes at multiple schools simultaneously (I knew a guy who was taking classes at CDA and Red Engine (i think this one's closed now) simultaneously), the only difficulty being commuting as Los Angeles is massive and full of traffic. The classes are still around though, just taught by other instructors. I know Peter Han took over the Intro to Form Language class, I'm not sure who's teaching Environment Design. I think they also added an Intro to Environment Design class as well.
Anyway, feel free to ask any more questions you might have. I know I had a ton when I was planning this big excursion, and it was especially tough to get answers specific to being Canadian. It's a huge undertaking (I planned it out for a year before setting out, spent most of that time saving up money because living in LA is not cheap, and neither are short-term rentals, so even though the courses themselves are relatively cheap when compared against the quality of the instructors, living expenses pile up quick).
Oh yeah, one more thing to mention - international students have to pay a $100 deposit upon applying, but they also get to pick their courses before locals which puts us at a bit of an advantage when it comes to the first-come-first-served system. I never had any trouble getting into the classes I wanted.
core999
2016-09-28 01:50
First I just want to say I really appreciate you taking the time to write such detailed replies. Yeah I've done TONS of research on online schools and other things myself... After seeing Peter's demo on the CGMA channel of drawing that huge dragon scene just about entirely from his imagination he definitely seems like someone I would want to learn from. I could take his CGMA course online but theres no way I could draw anything from life, I live in the middle of nowhere, I'd have to drive 6 hours to Calgary just to go to the zoo and I doubt they have an arboretum there. I found their perspective course online and in my personal opinion it looked pretty terrible. 800 USD seems to be a pretty standard rate for any 8-10 week course. I'm going to take Scott Eaton's Face anatomy course in October online because he's fucking amazing and Ive found some of his course work online. Theres a one month schoolism thing in Montreal but its close to 5000 dollars and covers things I don't care about. Some of the schoolism content isnt very good and I wouldnt take a mentored version of it.... Honestly a lot of the online content you just watch a pre recorded video each week thats about an hour or two long and hasn't been updated in years and then someone spends 8 minutes critiquing your work every week....
Do you get anything you can take with you to reference from and look at when you were taking the course? I have a pretty shitty attention span and I usually have to repeat something quite a bit for it to sink in. Those guys that live in that area already are pretty fucking lucky really. I'm mostly just interested in being able to draw and create my own characters or other concepts, and help understand someone elses concept in 3d space so I can sculpt it in Zbrush.
Theres also this http://fzdschool.com/ but it sounds pretty scary in terms of course work.
If I do end up going there too I think I'll take the vis com and figure drawing one as well. Perspective is really a drag, I had no idea what a cone of vision was for the longest time. I'm assuming the technical perspective would be similiar to Scott Robertsons book which reminds me of 3d modelling on paper(I never got through the book, I borrowed it from the library) Theres a huge 30 hour course on New Masters Academy about Perspective but it's probably the most dry boring thing I've ever tried to open and watch.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-28 16:54
Do you get anything you can take with you to reference from and look at when you were taking the course?
Not entirely sure what you mean by this, but the answer is in all likelihood no - the instructor does live demos for you, but in most cases you don't get any sort of recording of the demo to refer to later. As far as the attention span thing goes, that's something you're going to have to improve upon in order to really take advantage of the resources that are out there.
anchpop
2016-09-26 23:50
Uncomfortable, even if you quit doing critiques right now, with all the ones you have already done and all the free lessons you've posted, you've made a massive positive impact on the drawing community. I've seen you recommended everywhere. And $3 a month for what I believe the be the best fundamental art education available online is such a ridiculous steal as it is I would hardly have believed it had I not been here for almost a year already.
A word of warning about the sister subreddit though, I don't think it's such a good idea. I've seen subreddits split too often, and usually both are worse off because of it (see /r/unity2D and /r/unity3D for example). Not to tell you how to run your sub, but have you considered sticking all the important posts for new viewers and letting people post (hopefully) relevant content in the main sub?
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 23:59
You honestly might be right about that sister-sub thing, for more reasons than just what you've mentioned. Scrapping free critiques also means that the subreddit may become somewhat less kosher as far as reddit's policies go.
I've had submissions restricted to myself for the most part in order to reduce clutter - initially this was completely necessary due to the fact that there was no external website, just imgur-hosted hand-written lessons posted here. By the time the website came along, it just seemed cleaner to keep it the way it was, instead of having lessons buried by user posts. But now... Hm, I'm definitely going to have to give it some serious thought. On top of everything, I'd hate to let a 27,000 subscriber subreddit become somewhat moot.
Then there's other complications - what would I even name the sister subreddit? Do I just call it /r/Drawabox? But that sounds like it'd be the main subreddit, which is actually /r/Artfundamentals. That makes no sense. Do I name it something else? Then things still get weird... All in all it's probably a hell of a lot simpler to just open up user posts in this subreddit and call it a day. People will probably not even think to try and post at first, but eventually they'll get used to the change.
I will think on it though. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Ezechield
2016-09-27 14:19
Hi, actully you can also just keep your actual way of working but double every lesson post, one for free critics made by users, and one for yours ... so people can submit on free, personal, or both critics....
Anyway I have been thinking about that redit is not the best website for running this kind of stuff and it could be a good idea to make a kickstarter campagne for a fully functionnal website including lessons, review, forum and all and all ... I would be fully supporting it. There is actually a french guy who did that for digital painting and the campagne works well and the site is launched ... http://digitalpainting.school/
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 15:04
I did have plans to flesh out the drawabox website to actually include the ability to submit work for critique right there, among other things. Ultimately that plan fell on the backburner, and ultimately I decided it wasn't worth the trouble. It's true that reddit is a pain in the ass when it comes to this sort of thing, but as it stands, any sort of move to a different system would come with significant casualties (losing users due to confusion, and so on). It's certainly doable, but it'd also take a hell of a lot of time and effort. Currently I'm looking into ways to diminish my workload, rather than increase it, so that I can spend time on other projects I have going on.
Also, as far as doubling posts goes, it's not a bad idea but it does have a couple of problems. When I'm the only one giving critiques on a thread, it's simple - I'm automatically subscribed to every thread I make, so I get notified whenever someone posts homework. People (generally) don't get missed. If it's a single thread being followed by many people who are not subscribed to it, their homework is waaaay more likely to go unnoticed. For this reason, people who are asking questions or looking for community-critiques on their homework will have to be doing so as actual posts to the subreddit, because this bumps them up to the top and gives them some time in the spotlight before getting buried. Additionally, with every new post in the subreddit, we leech a little bit of attention from the rest of reddit, which helps grow the community. It's very, very easy for completely separate websites to remain a very small, niche environment. Had I started this thing off as a separate website, there's no way it would have grown this quickly. Reddit's a pain in the ass, but the free exposure it gives is invaluable.
I really appreciate your suggestions though - thanks for taking the time to think about how this subreddit and drawabox in general can be improved!
[deleted]
2016-09-27 02:26
Very sad that you had to do it, I admire people like you who are able to stick to something that difficult and time consuming for so long.
The only thing I don't get is that Patreony thing, to me Drawabox is like one step verification of your current progress rather than an actual course. I also don't have stable income to have an account there. (entirely my problem) But it doesn't mean that I couldn't pay for critique, I can pay couple times more then 3$ but only on an occasional basis (for that particular critique), after that I on my own for many months, and honestly drawabox has very little to do with my progress in that time. (I speak about advanced lessons not basics and challenges)
So if it's possible I would like to see an option for one time payment for critique, even if it will cost 3-5 times more.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 03:27
Honestly the critiques themselves are more important in the earlier stages, as opposed to the advanced lessons. Reason being, when you're learning your fundamentals there's a lot less to do with interpretation and more about hard-fast rules and specific goals. The advanced ones can be done poorly, sure, but there's a lot of wiggle room.
Either way, if you do find yourself interested in doing that one-off thing, I do have you covered. If you check out the giveback page of the drawabox website, you'll find information for doing a one-time donation which will get you critiques for that month.
Sandgolem
2016-09-27 08:42
Well I just got my supplies and started on lesson one, Didn't see you had a patreon for homework critique option. So I went ahead and started up a pledge at $5. Hopefully that will buy me a bit of advice.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 14:21
Thanks for the pledge! I just sent off some messages via patreon's messaging system to all new pledges, just to do some housekeeping (mainly finding everyone's reddit usernames so I can keep track of that).
drwasheewashee
2016-09-27 09:49
I'm already pledging $1 so it won't be much of a hassle to up it to $3.
edit: would asking you advice about stuff unrelated to the lessons (but still art related) be outside the realm of possibility at all?
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 13:46
Thanks for increasing your pledge! I actually answered your question where you asked it on patreon, but I figured I might as well paste it here as well:
As for your question, that really depends on what you'd be asking. I'm happy to give advice in terms of career path and goals. If it's a matter of critiquing artwork you've done however that's not related to the drawabox lessons, that wouldn't work out so well. I can give critiques for the drawabox stuff more easily because it all falls within a certain scope - critiquing individual pieces would each require a massive time investment from me, and it's also something lots of people would want to take advantage of. Pretty much just have to say no to that sort of thing right off the bat.
[deleted]
2016-09-27 10:44
You have been offering great value for a long time. I think $3 for critiques is more than fair.
dencontrol
2016-09-27 13:01
You greedy money-grubber!
I'm just kidding, thanks for everything you've done for the community and I can't stress enough, how much I've learned and how much impact you had for me to pick up the pen.
Past 6 years I've been living under the thought that I didn't start off drawing when I was a kid like other people, it's too late now until last year I had a little interest lit up through a friend, after little research and finding this site, I thought "Screw it, these lessons seems exactly what I need, someone to guide me from basic things to more advanced things and it's free too, what I got to lose?". Drawabox was definitely the trigger that kicked me in the butt for me to stop thinking and just start doing.
Now after approx 10 months of drawing, I'm still as excited about drawing as I was when I first started and have never felt so much motivation to learn and to improve something in my life before. If it wasn't for you giving me little goals with your lessons, I might be wandering around blindly without knowing what to do.
Thank you once again, especially for the HUGE amount of effort you've put for this. It's great to know, no matter how small or silly the question is, you'll still take your time to give a detailed reply for it. (Sorry for bothering you so much with pms here and there at times, don't beat me, I'll draw boxes in exchange.)
Will definitely be upgrading my patreon up to 3$monthly. Or donate 3$ for that month on the PayPal when I need to submit a homework? I read something about one time payment in the comment was a little bit confused, is that how it works? (I'm a little bit busy at times and might take months to finish a lesson, also a little bit tight on money at times, so one-time thing would definitely be great!)
Uncomfortable
2016-09-27 14:37
Thanks for the kind words! As for the one time donation, it's geared towards those who may have trouble committing to the same amount every month. Basically if you donate in a given month, you'll get treated as a patreon supporter for that month (you're welcome to critiques and I send you an email with all the current video links). So feel free to use that as an alternative.
Fish_Face_Faeces
2016-09-27 18:25
I'd like to jump on the bandwagon and just say thank you, so much. Don't have much else to contribute.
Peteman22
2016-09-28 09:41
I was thinking about this. How about insread ofanother subbreddit, you attach a forum to Drawabox.com? That may need some extra work, servers and getting moderaters etc. But I do think forums are much better at fostering community spirit than a sub reddit is. Allowing people to start forum sketchbook thread's will make it much more easy to see where they've come from, to see if they have any lingering issues etc. Over a a sub reddit where making a thread can get clunky because of the up voting and down voting.
What do you think.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-28 17:04
That was the initial plan - that is, over a year ago. I meant to ultimately detach from reddit and build up the whole community on the website itself. That idea fizzled out a long time ago for various reasons - mostly because actually putting it together would be a considerable amount of work. I'll be damned if I ever put a premade PhpBB or whatever else board on my server - if I bothered to do that, it would be something custom built. The most bothersome thing would be image hosting - on reddit, it's fine. We host our stuff on imgur or wherever else, and because of the nature of the environment, we're used to that. On a dedicated website, it's somewhat harder to expect that of users. It becomes a serious usability issue - you should be able to host things through the website itself. The best solution for this is using Amazon S3, but ultimately that's another cost to worry about.
Lastly, I am actually seriously considering just opening up the current subreddit rather than making a separate one (plenty of reasons why it might be better, but I won't get into them now). This presents one major advantage - every post users make will draw more attention to the subreddit, which will drive more people to the website. Basically it's free exposure, which really allowed drawabox to grow in the first place.
Long story short - it'd be far too much work and trouble to set up a forum on drawabox that would actually meet my standards. We're already on reddit, so the resistance to just opening this subreddit to other peoples' posts and discussions would be fairly minimal. Upvoting and downvoting can be an annoyance, and I certainly can go to some lengths to mitigate that impact (though not completely remove it) like hiding the upvote/downvote options, but ultimately it's a trade-off that I'm comfortable with.
ReDraw-mind
2016-09-28 14:11
well ..that's was expected & to be honest you deserve to care more for your health & strength so that your great capabilities continues to shine :)
i had replied on "the state of Union" post but it looks like you didn't see it .
any way after what i said there all i can add here is i'll find a way to participate in patron campaign to keep a smooth review for my submissions as i need to get further in lessons & don't wait much .
for me i have been doing both the 250 Box & cylinder challenges & then i'm redoing the L6 submission again which is almost done so i can't only submit one at a time .
and as always thank you 4 your efforts :)
Uncomfortable
2016-09-28 17:06
I actually did see your post on the other thread - to be honest, I didn't respond to it because I was already moving in the direction of cutting out free critiques altogether, so there wasn't much I couldn't have said that wouldn't have been a little embarrassing.
Also to note, it's fine to submit the box/cylinder challenges and lesson 6 at the same time, because they're not technically required prerequisites. The issue is more towards those who want to submit lessons 1, 2, 3, etc. rapid-fire one after another, rather than finishing off 1, receiving a critique, then applying what they've learned from the critique to lesson 2's homework.
ReDraw-mind
2016-09-28 17:24
That's ok. i understand what you mean & in some way or another every thing has a price to be paid in this world so why don't the hard working people take it & there will be another one who can handle some free work until he comes to a point like where you are standing now .. i think
see you in the next work submission ISA
dsfunctional
2016-09-28 17:27
Just stumbled upon your website and this sub today. Not related to your post really just wanted to share that i'm extremely impressed, cool to see your here in Halifax also! Plan on jumping into your first exercise/homework this evening.
angry_at
2016-09-29 15:25
First, thank you for offering these lessons. I'm self taught and have been drawing since I was a kid, but had gotten kind of stuck. Traditional style books never really seemed to help. After digging for a long time I ran across drawabox, and these lessons just seem to fit how I learn. I've begun to document my experiences on my blog, https://drewmerten.wordpress.com.
Second, I'd like to offer a slight bit of advice concerning tools. I notice you do show the type of pens needed, and I ran across a comment you made talking about using printer paper (something I'd picked up from Doug Chiang's book Mechanika). It might be a good idea to mention it for new people, perhaps in the drawabox lessons by where you talk about the pens. Obviously most people use whatever they like, but if you're already telling people what to do/use why stop there:)
Any way thank you so much for these lessons, I'll be supporting you via Patreon shortly.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-29 21:00
You're absolutely right about that - I'm going to write a reminder to do that on a sticky and stick it to one of my monitors immediately. Hopefully I'll get to it this weekend while updating lesson 7. Rather than leaving it down in the homework section, I should probably go over that stuff at the top. Thanks for the prod in the right direction.
Jackson622
2016-09-29 20:15
Congrats on the success of this subreddit / your site. I'll be joining the group on the other side whether through Patreon or via paypal.
One thought I had which may have been covered already in the ~80 posts, but have you done some kind of analysis to determine that the $3 price point is going to successfully accomplish what you are shooting for? The sense I get by reading through quickly is most everyone will be paying the $3, which means the workload may not be going down after all.
Said another way, would it be better to screen people out at a higher point (say $5 or whatever) to see what happens, then backing off if needed to generate the income/traffic you want, vs. going $3 now and potentially having to raise it in the near term?
I'm no business guy, and maybe you've already thought about it. Just a minor contribution to consider. I hope you are taking some pride in this whole thing, it's quite interesting and amazing.
PS Hope your healing/recovery is going well.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-29 21:04
I am honestly a little worried about that, but we'll have to see how it goes. There's no backing out now, either way. I do have the expectation that eventually I'll run into the same problem (I'm hoping it wont' be for a while), but some people have suggested that when I reach that point, I can make some more nuanced adjustments - for instance, tying your pledged amount to the number of submissions you can make in a month.
To be honest, I'm very much betting on the idea that the difference between free and any dollar amount is steep enough to drive a healthy number away. Of course, the ones we see here are those who are supportive of the idea (most of whom are happy to spend the paltry amount) but it's still a pretty small number of people relative to the number of people I get submitting for critiques. Also looking at the number of increases in pledges and new pledges I've received in the past few days - there has been a significant jump, but nothing that makes me particularly worried.
And thanks for the well wishes! My mouth is actually feeling much better today, and I think I'll order myself some pizza to celebrate. ... I'd better not burn the roof of my mouth.
perlatus
2016-09-30 05:50
I spent $14 on an introductory drawing book
($14 for finally convincing myself that I just might be able to draw is a pretty good deal in the long run) that is now collecting dust because I realized midway through the second lesson that I had no idea how to draw circles, and I wanted to be able to draw good circles.
Then I realized I couldn't draw lines either, and that scared me enough to look for other resources.
Drawabox has already taught me how to draw lines and circles (and... boxes), so I think $3 a month is a steal. I think it's certainly worth more than $1, which is why I didn't pledge that amount when I signed up.
Metacious
2016-09-30 06:27
As an economist, your decision is correct. You don't charge to become a millionaire money-grubber, you just handle the demand with a price barrier. And earning money has never been a bad thing as long as you do what you offer, so I hope the best for you.
As for me, I'm poor, but 3 dollars a month for learning how to draw? I think it is a fair deal :)
SilverSabrewulf
2016-09-30 18:00
I also upped my amount to $3. I haven't even submitted any homework yet (need to get around to starting my drawing habit soon), but I feel you deserve it for all the effort you put in.
Uncomfortable
2016-09-30 19:31
Thanks so much! It's much appreciated, and I certainly hope you jump into drawing soon!
Notyap45
2016-09-30 21:25
So would the lessons still be worth doing if I can't afford to pay for critique right now?
Uncomfortable
2016-09-30 22:07
Definitely. On both lessons 1 and 2 you'll find 'self critique resources' (blue buttons on the top of each lesson) to help you identify certain common mistakes people tend to make. Also, once free critiques close after the 7th, I'll be opening the subreddit up so you can post your work for others to critique.
DerekB9Aura
2016-10-01 21:30
Do the temporary free critiques apply to the drawing challenges as well or just the lessons?
fundamentofpainting
2016-10-05 00:36
I have been wondering how you keep up with all these critiques. I have been stressed with writing articles lately, but even doing additional critiques is super stressfull as you said.
Hope the way you change things work for you!
-Hai
Uncomfortable
2016-10-05 00:39
Hahaha, yeah, it definitely gets tough. Thanks for the kind words, and best of luck with your own project!
danpeal
2016-10-10 12:56
Fully understandable! Thank for critiques that I received from you. I truly appreciate it. Everybody has a limit, and you reached your's time for a restart!
livingonthehedge
2016-09-26 16:15
From https://www.patreon.com/uncomfortable
Uncomfortable
2016-09-26 16:29
The patreon campaign up until this point has pretty much just been a way for people to give recurring donations to help keep the website going - it hasn't, until now, given anything different based on how much you pledge. First the demo recordings were included as a gesture of thanks (the ones I included back then were a little less helpful, I find, than the ones I've created more recently), then when I started taking those month-long 'breaks', patrons were still able to receive critiques.
Beyond that, if anyone ever had any questions, they've just asked me (via reddit, facebook, youtube, etc.) and I've answered to the best of my ability - whether they're patrons or not. 1-on-1 time isn't something that has been requested, and honestly I think that it might not be the best route for me to take, just based on my approach to teaching thus far.
Long story short, at least as it stands right now, aside from giving more support to the project and resources themselves, a $20 pledge is no better for you than a $3 one. Even though this results in lower revenue for me, I want to keep it that way for at least the time being, as the vast majority of people can still afford $3/month if they're really interested in taking the lessons to that next level of seriousness.