Any other traditional painters in here (oil, acrylic, pastels)? What do you do with your 50% rule?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/xw51jb/any_other_traditional_painters_in_here_oil/
2022-10-05 08:39
Rockstone_Art
Hi, Im an oil painter and Im looking into starting drawabox. I recognise that my drawing skills needs work and this regimented training really appeals to me. My question is, what do I do with the 50% rule? Would oil painting (with a pencil drawing to start with) count?
And also, I am not planning to ever paint on draw without reference (I have aphantasia) so should I still be trying to draw from imagination? Really appreciate any advice or just sharing similar experiences.
Uncomfortable
2022-10-05 12:58
Oil painting certainly counts, as would any act of representational picture making that has you making strokes and marks.
Also, to the point about planning to always work with reference - while that's not an issue, you're mistaken in thinking that aphantasia will bar you from working without reference. I have it myself, and while reference has been very helpful, restructuring the manner in which I understand and process those references, and how it gets committed to memory when doing studies from reference does improve my ability to draw without them.
Not saying you should actively seek to work without references (although that recommendation that students may want to spend their first couple weeks on the 50% rule without reference may be something you'd benefit from here), just that you're setting up the expectations and limitations based on presumption rather than allowing your skills to develop however they will. Do not get ahead of yourself in deciding what you will and won't be capable of.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 14:15
Never did any semblance of a 50% rule going back to childhood ... rather, I did a thorough and prolonged study of fundamentals. For decades. Before the Internet this was the standard to gain proficiency. All art is fun. Some subject matter I enjoy more than others but if I'm drawing or painting I'm content.
I've been painting for 50+ years and rarely paint anything without a reference ... your imagination will lie to you, particularly with aphantasia. You have an extra hurdle but not one that can't be compensated for.
We tend to draw something as we think it is as opposed to what it actually looks like. I have a fairly vivid visual memory that is directly related to an ability to see. The only thing I will draw without a reference is horses, and only because I am so familiar with them.
I honestly don't get the fascination of DaB as a learning tool. Repetitive exercises without a foundation of fundamentals isn't effective. So many quit the course or still have to go back to fundamentals; there is no substitute and no shortcuts.
APieceOfCake16
2022-10-05 14:48
Isn't DaB teaching the fundamentals?
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 15:05
I would call it an abbreviated system that lacks in principles of fundamentals. No, I have not done DaB but have email and PM conversations from those who have, and helped crit their work.
This review: https://conceptartempire.com/drawabox-lessons-review/
Anatomy studies bother me more than anything ... the circle thing; if you draw your circles too small or large the animal is not correct. Animal anatomy is species specific and is as involved as human anatomy. Perspective and texture is fair.
Will DaB hurt you? No, but for that much time just go straight to accepted study.
Uncomfortable
2022-10-05 16:10
I think the second-hand information about the course and its purpose may be somewhat misleading. Drawabox isn't a broadly scoped course that attempts to develop a lot of different areas - it focuses specifically on developing students' spatial reasoning skills (understanding how the things they draw on a flat page represent things that exist in three dimensions), and only as a prerequisite to that also delves into confident markmaking as well.
While the course has lessons touching on plants, insects, animals, vehicles, etc. it does not attempt to teach students how to draw them specifically, but rather uses them as a lens through which to look at the same core issues relating to spatial reasoning. Each constructional drawing exercise becomes a 3D spatial puzzle that requires us to think about how we're combining simpler forms together, how they relate to one another within 3D space, etc.
You may want to give these videos from Lesson 0 a watch to better understand what the course's goals are, so you can weigh your judgments against what the course itself professes to tackle:
What is Drawabox
What are the Fundamentals
Lesson 0's videos as a whole go into a lot of detail to familiarize students with what they're going to be learning, how they should approach and go about using the course, and so on - but I'd imagine you're a busy man, and so I understand you might not have time to go through it all. Those first two videos should help clarify many of the core misunderstandings you may have about the course, however.
In all fairness to you though I will admit that the course has evolved and developed a more specific scope over time - so your idea of it may have been more accurate several years ago, while I was still forming a more solid idea of where this instruction fits in, and where the course needs to focus to have the greatest impact.
bakerpls98
2022-10-05 23:08
If you arent studying from drawabox or have experience with the course, then why are you even on this sub? A portion of the fundamentals are taught on the course, and if you bothered to look on the site and watch a vid or two, you would know that.
Dozens of professionals still revisit the fundamentals. which is why many older artists join the course. Drawabox is convenient and affordable. Ateliers and schools are not. No point in newer artists hashing out a lot of cash for something they might not even be passionate about. Drawabox helps people soak their feet into the field. I am one of those people.
Rather than complaining, list those fundamentals and provide sources. Oh wait, this sub already does that toointeresting
john_doe_TP
2022-10-05 15:03
Eh. I get your complaints but i don't get how you see DaB as a shortcut. Maybe some students THINK it is but they're sorely mistaken. DaB teaches you some very very fundamental aspects of drawing in a laser-focused way. When you're through with it you basically just got started. It's like learning Math up to a level where you can now start doing highschool level classes.
The most valuable thing DaB teaches you is - in my opinion - how to approach problems and learning things in art. Even more valuable than the things I learned about perspective or drawing forms. It's helping me understand how I can approach using other books and resources for practicing.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 15:17
When you're through with it you basically just got started. .... To my point. ;-) I suppose this is why those who have completed the course go back to traditional fundamentals. It seems to me if you're going to do that anyway just do that.
General_McQuack
2022-10-05 15:35
What do you consider traditional fundamentals that DaB doesnt teach?
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 15:46
It's not what it is how.
General_McQuack
2022-10-05 15:59
Then you fundamentally misunderstand DaB. It starts at way more of a fundamental level than traditional modes of study start at which is useful for people who havent grown up drawing and believe it is all talent.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 16:07
Okay ... DaB is the greatest online course of teaching fundamentals ever developed regardless of discipline. ;-)
General_McQuack
2022-10-05 17:14
Yeah thats not what I said.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 21:14
Look, I don't care to debate the benefits of DaB ... if people find it helpful, wonderful. Granted, I never did the course (too late for that) and only responded to subscribers that did and were frustrated; they contacted me. I tried to steer them in a direction that helped their discipline. Nearly all were representational artists as opposed to fantasy, manga/anime, background, or character artists.
I recommended a time honored means to elevate skills with realism; books, community college, disciplined self taught work, ateliers. Who are we to argue with several hundred years of progress? I do recommend an online resource for realism based fundamentals because it is solid but am in no way affiliated with it.
If DaB helps you, fine. But when emerging artists seek shortcuts to competence ... can we not look at what works for others? Not everyone is Kim Jung-gi; so rare. The rest of us have to work at it. Hard.
I will still recommend classically trained resources.
General_McQuack
2022-10-05 21:39
Ill go back to what I said about you misunderstanding what DaB is for. Its not a shortcut, Id say its the opposite. When I first started, I couldnt even conceive of how to draw a line properly. Now, I havent had a formal artistic education but I dont think that art classes in community college start that far back. (if they do, that is great, but then I dont see the difference)
DaB taught me that it wasnt just change or luck that told artists how to draw a line properly, it was exercise and practice, consciously or unconsciously. That alone was a huge stepping stone from which Ive made a lot of progress. Should purely representational artists get more out of pure reference study, that is great for them, and I would recommend them to do that! But Id wager the reason you only get those people complaining is because most people who want to learn art do so out of a desire to make that which is in their imagination real, for which the exercises in DaB are supremely helpful.
john_doe_TP
2022-10-05 15:36
I don't see how it is to your point. The same could be said about plenty of traditional art courses for beginners. I have visited traditional drawing/painting courses in atelier schools while chipping away at DaB. I wouldn't want to do without either of them.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 15:47
Really? You're the first person I've read who has stated that. Whatever works ....
john_doe_TP
2022-10-05 20:02
Idk why you got downvoted.
The course itself says that you can explore any other medium or learning resource alongside DaB as long as you stick by the 50% rule. Not using reference is something he only encourages students to do in the beginning. I'm actually with you there; some of the limitations on what the 50% rule "allows" seems like a tiny bit too much to me. I think what a lot of people who follow or follow and quit DaB get wrong is that while it is a nice and clear defined program it won't get you to a crazy skill level right after finishing it and you still need to take charge of your learning process outside of the program; both while completing it and after clearing it. After the first 2 lessons you should definitely pick up observational drawing on the side. After lesson 3 or 5 I'd also start figure drawing, if that is important for your longterm goals. Well at least that's what I'd tell people getting started.
bakerpls98
2022-10-05 23:09
theyre getting downvoted for shitting on the course
General_McQuack
2022-10-05 15:37
If you have been painting for 50+ years and cant paint most things without reference, dont you think thats an advocation for the 50% rule? I dont always want to be stuck painting what I can find a reference for, so painting from imagination and honing your creativity seems like a worthwhile thing to practice.
prpslydistracted
2022-10-05 16:03
Wow. I absolutely can paint/draw without a reference ... traditional realism doesn't depend other world imagination you're speaking of ... I don't paint fantasy or characters.
When I speak of references I mean combining scenes, such as 3-5 different elements for a landscape that doesn't exist. Costume, portraits, historical structures, species of flowers ... it is about accuracy not my lack of imagination.
I rarely have to hunt references ... I catalog my own.
[deleted]
2022-10-06 18:18
Any references for fundamentals education?
holdmyfold
2022-10-05 19:05
Whats 50% rule??
VenKitsune
2022-10-05 19:08
It's in lesson 0. It says that 50% should be study, 50% should be drawing or painting for the hell of it, for fun, and to apply what you've learned.
holdmyfold
2022-10-06 12:01
Oh... Thanks
L4dyGr4y
2022-10-05 23:33
Art Teacher here- I am having students do draw a box for sketchbook and we are working through the elements of art and principles of design. Two weeks per theme: line, shape, form, value, color, texture, space. Etc.