John Park starts an affordable online foundational art program, "Foundation Group"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/37evi1/john_park_starts_an_affordable_online/
2015-05-27 02:56
Uncomfortable
Foundation Group. It's run through Patreon, and from the looks of it seems to offer a very interesting path to learning the fundamentals of drawing for those who don't have access to local classes, and especially those who are interested in the entertainment/concept design angle of it all.
Having learned from John Park while I was studying at Concept Design Academy in Los Angeles, I know that this is big news. Unfortunately, while I would have been extremely excited about it a year ago, reading about it today has me a little torn.
I'm concerned about what this means for what I've been doing here. I can tell you now, for a fact, that what Foundation Group offers for $20/month is worth every penny. Some may look at it as what I've been offering here for free - foundational lessons with homework exercises and interactive critique - but Foundation Group is run by folks with years of experience, both as concept artists and art directors, but also as professional instructors.
There's certainly a whole lot of folks here who benefit from the fact that my lessons don't include any pay wall - from those just getting their feet wet to those who have to decide between drawing a bunch of boxes or eating that night - and I'm thrilled that I've been able to help that demographic. At the end of the day though, it's still the money that the project generates, primarily through donations, that allows me to provide that content for free.
That's what has me worried. If you've got twenty bucks to spend every month, you'd get much more out of it by spending it on the Foundation Group, and rather than blame you, honestly I'd encourage it. What's important is that you go out there and you do the best you can to reach your goals.
So for now, I'm going to keep an eye on the situation. I was pretty excited about having the drawabox website redesigned from head to toe, and developing a full community website there, but now it looks like a pretty bad time to be sinking hundreds of dollars on a graphic/ux designer and however much time it'd take me to develop it. We'll see how things play out.
But for all of you who are interested in art as a career - working in film, gaming, illustration, even fashion and product design - check out Foundation Group. John Park's got my stamp of approval, and then some.
cartoonishguy
2015-05-27 04:22
Don't be so hard on yourself, I think your website is excellent and you are awesome. I've seen great improvements in my drawings and confidence since I started coming to your subreddit back in January. Although I'm on a break from the lessons at the moment.
I think it's important as artists to learn from a wide range of places. There are plenty of places people can go to learn art. John Park is as much your competition as a community painting class is or a book on a shelve. If you were to release a book of your lessons I would buy it. Actually that would be amazing if you did that. But I don't other art lessons are your competition, I think of all of it as sister programs.
I think your website is a great resource, maybe the best resource I've encountered. I think most folks can spare a at least a dollar a month for you. I've told multiple people about this subreddit.
nightningflash
2015-05-27 05:48
It's great to hear that there'll be a new affordable online program, however I agree with cartoonishguy that there is room for both. Also you don't need to put in hundreds of dollars on hiring a graphic/ux designer for a functional website / community forum. Please don't. It's the content, your lessons, notes and videos that matters and not what the site looks like.
This is a fairly popular subreddit. There might be possibilities of volunteers helping with expanding this community instead of just you going at it alone.
FYI: I'm a UX designer, more on interaction architecture side than visual design... but a website doesn't take that much work. Depending on timing, I might be able to help.
Uncomfortable
2015-05-27 13:05
Thanks for the encouragement. Ultimately, the reason I want to redevelop the website is not just for the sake of looks. That is definitely a factor, but it's more for the sake of functionality.
My goal has always been to use the drawabox website for everything related to these lessons - specifically adding homework submission, critiques and progress tracking. These are all things we do on reddit right now, and quite frankly it is painful. Reddit just isn't designed for this sort of thing, and using it makes my life more difficult than it needs to be.
Then there's the topic of critiques in general. Ideally I'd want to nurture a culture of users critiquing each other. I don't believe in listening to the suggestions of any random stranger, but I'd want to be able to give one of three grades to a lesson's homework submission - redo, good and excellent. The last one would allow that user to go on and critique the work others submit to that same lesson. Of course, there would have to be something they would gain by critiquing, and I haven't figured that part out yet. Maybe unlocking higher level lessons, achievements, I'm not sure.
The effect is two fold - most importantly it cuts down my workload. Secondly, it begins nurturing a culture of artists critiquing each other, as well as one of only accepting critique from someone who has proven themselves to understand the material.
From fairly early on, when the workload started to get a little out of control, I decided that would be a temporary thing. I'd work my ass off for a while and structure things to be a little more self-sustaining so that in the long run, I'd only have to focus on writing lessons. This project has really never been sustainable, mostly because of the ever-rising demand for critiques.
To be honest, I'm against accepting volunteers. Right now this project does pull in some revenue (which has been steadily growing). It's one thing to have users volunteering to help if a project is completely non-profit, but money complicates things. If I'm making a penny off it, it's important to me that any labour I benefit from is compensated fairly. Beyond fairness, it also goes further to ensure the reliability of those doing the work.
Still, I appreciate the offer, and I'll keep you in mind. Right now I do have a professional graphic/UX designer on hand, but if I ever need another hand on this project, I'll give you a shout.
nightningflash
2015-05-28 01:27
Gotcha. Yeah I can see how scaling would be an issue when it comes to a single person offering all the critiques and manually managing progress tracks.
Hmmm based on what you've mentioned sounds like a forum might be the way to go as the foundation. Subforums setup for each lesson. You get the comment threads, homework/file uploads and subforum moderation out of the box. Then custom mod it to limit replies to moderators and extra hooks for automatically promoting users to subforum moderators based on custom user statuses. The hooks will be the hardest part.
Or you can take a bug/ticket tracker, treat homework submissions as tickets, and build custom views for easy way of viewing list of tickets for each lesson. Bug trackers tend to be more utilitarian and harder to style. Of course, you'll still need to deal with the automatic updating of user permissions.
As to volunteers vs paid services. Interesting that you see it that way... Not that there's anything wrong with hiring a freelancer for work... Just considering the amount of time and effort you've spent and are continuing to spend on the project, I see it as anybody volunteering to help is really just pitching in as a service in kind payment. Agree that volunteers can be much flakier than a freelancer on contract. But my offer is there if there's a need.
Uncomfortable
2015-05-28 01:39
On the bright side, I worked as a professional web developer for some time, and still keep up with more modern technologies. When it comes to either building something from scratch or jerry-rigging an existing forum system... Well, when I was in high school, I was faced with a similar quandry. I was very much into text-based roleplaying, but wanted to build a proper RPG system under it. I had the option of modding the everlivingcrap out of a phpbb system... but instead I spent the better part of a year building a custom system from scratch where instead of forum>sub-forum>thread you'd have town>building>room, characters could only exist in one place at a time, characters had customizable avatars, inventories, all sorts of fun stuff. I kind of miss that game, it kept my friends and me entertained for a couple years.
Long story short, to hell with existing systems! On the bright side, that also means I only have to worry about paying for the design side of things.
Ultimately I do think I'll probably still walk down this road. Business-sense and financially sound decisions have never stopped me in the past, and there may still be room for a strong, community-driven experience rather than the rigid instructor-student relationship Foundation Group will offer. That is, aside from the community blog thing, which they did at Concept Design Academy and didn't really encourage that much student-student interaction.
nightningflash
2015-05-29 01:38
You'll end up with a much better system building from scratch. It does take a ton of work, but you know what they say... labours of love. It'll be worth it.
Whirly123
2015-05-27 11:08
Just want to say that I am currently in John's mentorship!!! (separate group) Its so insanely good! There are only 5 of us and we meet for 5 hours every two weeks) John is a fantastic teacher. I have had one session so far.
Uncomfortable
2015-05-27 13:17
He totally is! His course on form language really affected the way I look at design. I ended up drawing some of my best stuff for that class...
If you don't mind my asking, how much does his mentorship cost?
Whirly123
2015-05-27 13:38
Here you go https://www.patreon.com/jparked?ty=h ... it is $100 every two weeks. Also going to be doing Noah's Artcamp with Titus Lunter. Going to be a crazy few weeks since I quit my job to go freelance!
mrlao
2015-05-27 12:57
I agree with /u/nightningflash and /u/cartoonishguy. Foundation Group may be best for someone who wants/needs to learn drawing for professional purposes but for someone like me who just wants to get a little better at drawing I think your program is perfect. I wouldn't stop my Patreon donation to you even if I would try the Foundation Group in the future, because I really like your program and your personal and honest feedback. Keep it up!
Uncomfortable
2015-05-27 21:26
I just saw that you doubled your pledge! It really means a lot to me, and it goes that much farther for everyone who can't afford to pitch in. Thanks so much!
mrlao
2015-05-28 10:39
It's the least I can do. Struggling along with lesson 3 at the moment, hoping to get some more drawing time in the upcoming summer vacation.
_throawayplop_
2015-05-28 13:03
Thanks for the link, I'lll bookmark it.
I have to say that I'm quite happy with your lessons. For the first time, I find a drawing course which really gives the fundamentals to people having no skill or talent. I always had the feeling that all the books or tutorials I had a look ot before where a bit to much like the famous how-to-draw-an-owl (http://sethgodin.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b31569e2019aff29b7cd970c-800wi) for my taste.
I'm still not at the point to take advantage of your critiques (I'm extremely slow and still on the first exercices of the first lesson even after 2/3 weeks, line control is extremely tough for me) but even if I never manage to get far with my skills, I would like to thank you to have proposed these lessons, and critics for anyone and for free.
Uncomfortable
2015-05-28 13:37
Good lord, those how-to-draw-an-owls are getting more and more elaborate every time I see them. Glad I could help, though.
drymedia
2015-07-25 23:36
The thing about the owl lesson is that all the information you need to draw it is already there. Its not there as a step by step diagram but the information you need is there. Someone has already translated a real life 3 dimensional owl and replicated it on a 2 dimensional surface. Your copying something that is already drawn. The hard part is already done. The details / texture is what makes it look so darn complicated. If you remove this pattern the resulting image is not difficult to replicate. As I mentioned before it is already a 2d drawing so the hard part is already done. Copying a drawing isnt even close to as difficult as drawing from life.
[deleted]
2015-05-29 02:24
No, you're website is awesome. It has helped me so much, I'm not only more of competent, I'm more confident in my ability to learn drawing. Also, not everyone learning art has the money to spend $20 a month, you are a blessing to those who can't. Maybe make donation on your site more prominent?
Uncomfortable
2015-05-29 03:01
Thanks! That means a lot. I donno how I'd make the 'give back' thing more prominent though, without screaming, "PAY ME YOU CHEAPSKATESSSS".. but I'm sure I'll find a way! The more I consider it, the more I feel I want to build a proper professional website around this.
I've never really been one to stop doing something on account of sound financial advice and business sense. Success be damned!
grumpi2
2015-05-29 21:17
Think of it this way... they are running that through Patreon, mostly, aren't they? Have you got any clue what they do to keep track of the flood of homework submissions?
Sure, they may be amazing art teachers and be able to provide a top-notch curriculum. But it sounds like they are facing exactly the same challenges you do. Nothing is for certain, but... what if they'd be interested in partnering with / using a web platform for art education like the one you're considering to build?
jaimeiniesta
2015-05-31 21:21
I agree with the rest: drawabox is awesome, and I think there's place for both. I might try the Foundation Group later on, but for now I'm pretty busy with the exercises you propose.
I'm so glad that I found drawabox, because until now I only had discovered some Instructables courses, but your course is so much better organized, and the community around here is excellent too.
Your honesty in announcing a course that you feel might end your own course is really appreciated, thanks for that. But count with me for a long time yet :)
Uncomfortable
2015-05-31 22:29
I really appreciate that! And I also appreciate the extra support on my patreon campaign. I think with all of the encouragement, and the thought that I've given it, I will be moving forwards with my plans to expand the website into something more community-driven and standalone.
jaimeiniesta
2015-06-01 07:51
That's great news :)
I'm a backend web developer (ruby on rails, mostly). I'll be glad to help with the development or ideas on its process.
[deleted]
2015-06-03 23:50
I feel strange enough being such a beginner at drawing compared to some others that post. I don't think I'm nearly ready enough for a class from John Park. However, being a concept artist has been something of a dream of mine for so long that it's kinda tempting, heh.
Uncomfortable
2015-06-04 02:50
While on one hand, I totally understand the apprehension that's holding you back, you've gotta start somewhere. When I was deciding whether or not to go to CDA, I had another option to attend Sheridan College's art fundamentals course. It was much closer to home, and much cheaper in general. Part of me was thinking that if it was just my fundamentals, I could learn those anywhere and then have more time to learn the 'important stuff' in LA.
But then it occurred to me - it's called your foundation for a reason. It is the important stuff. Everything else is just fluff. If you build a house on a rickety foundation, the house will fall no matter how fancy it is. So if you're going to spend on something, it should be what you learn first, all of those basic skills.
But honestly, it's ten bucks per video, and you can cancel any time. I'd say that if you really do want to become a concept artist, you should try it out if it's financially viable for you right now.
[deleted]
2015-06-04 04:08
I also want to be a rockstar and a dinosaur. :D
I would love to just be a capable artist and I probably will drop the ten a month because why not and then just double team these courses. They seem like they complement each other very well.
[deleted]
2015-06-09 11:05
After going through the first demo, I think the Foundation Group is an awesome supplement to what you're teaching. I really like that it starts off with silhouettes. It's a super simple technique thats just quick, fun and looks cool (It's also nice to hear John Park repeating "Stop caring about what it looks like, you're gonna marker over it.").
But I feel that if I want to learn the basics of drawing and start really building on that, this is the place to be. Foundation Group is like... whatever you do after you build walls of the house, brick-by-brick box-by-box. So... like... the roof or something. You get it.
That said, I'mma do both. I'm gonna get my ass kicked this summer and draw a bunch of terrible shit(myplantsareterrible) 'cause that sounds fun as hell heaven? i guess?
Uncomfortable
2015-06-09 13:37
Honestly I'm not entirely sure how they're structuring Foundation Group. They say they're covering dynamic sketching - which is the core of the fundamentals I teach here - but I'm not sure how they're going to lead into that.
[deleted]
2015-06-06 17:59
[deleted]
Uncomfortable
2015-06-06 22:22
I think what turns me away from the volunteer thing is that in the long run, I want drawabox to become a significant source of income for me. Not sure if it will, but that's the goal.
I appreciate the offer though - I'll definitely keep you in mind. One of my close friends who's on board with the project is an extremely skilled graphic designer, and I've worked with her before, so for now the plan is to get her to redesign the website for me when I'm ready to make that jump. If those plans change though, I'll be in touch.
As for how long you should be spending, you're right it does vary quite a bit on the individual to the point where it isn't terribly productive to give you an amount of time. I will however tell you that when I took Peter Han's dynamic sketching course, I spent at least eight hours each week (so per lesson). My course includes much more homework however, especially with lesson 1.
So generally, it'll take a lot longer than people expect. It's been a pretty long time since I received work that was truly rushed though, so from what I can tell people have been getting the idea.
victoriarosie
2015-06-08 05:02
So you have pretty much been doing this on your own. Drawabox is your baby and you love it, but you're also over thinking it. Just take a deep breath, we aren't going anywhere. I would also like to note, that you could definitely give yourself more credit. I don't even know if I'm missing anything here, but I can hardly tell what kind of quality work the students and teachers are producing from the patreon site. If I were to look at your site and theirs, yours still would have been my first pick just because of how direct it was.
I haven't even been posting all that often, originally because of lazieness, but now because I'm taking a full time cosmetology course. Still, I keep my subscription going because people like you change lives. It might sound dramatic, but its true. I've been really poor and really rich and the only thing that stayed constant in my life was art. It keeps me going. The classes these were based on go for like $700 each, and I know there are so many people who live for art but just cant afford it.
The fact that you give it for free is amazing. But, with that comes stress and limitations on your work. Is there any way you could set a higher max on patreon? I honestly would be willing to give $20 a month, and some people maybe even more. But the max you set for yourself is $10. I don't mind paying the extra money if it means that I'm helping cover the other people who can't. Never be afraid to ask for some extra help. With all that you're doing for your students, it would only be fair that we could give some more back.
Uncomfortable
2015-06-09 00:31
I really appreciate the encouragement. From what I've seen since posting this, it definitely does seem like there's room for both, so I'm going to be continuing to pursue my plans. Ultimately it's probably the best thing I can do - focusing on the community aspect of things, on building up a group of people who can benefit from each other as much as from the lessons.
As for the patreon, there actually isn't a maximum - just suggested amounts. I suppose it makes a lot of sense though, that people would be automatically going for one of the amounts I set out, so as per your suggestion, I added a few more steps.
I think at the end of the day, my goal isn't really to keep doing this singlehandedly, but rather to develop it into something self-sustaining. I want to nurture a culture of people proving themselves and then turning around to give back to those behind them. Eventually, I'd like to shift the focus away from my critique (since it's not exactly the most sustainable model). Once the new version of the website is done, the plan is going to be to allow those who complete the lessons to an exemplary level, to go back and give critiques to others.
There's going to have to be some sort of a concrete reason for them to actually put in the time to critique others, some sort of incentive, but I haven't quite figured that out yet. It really is beneficial - I've learned loads from critiquing others - but it's not the sort of thing everyone's going to jump at.
victoriarosie
2015-06-09 00:47
So TIL about that patreon thing. I don't use it often. I bumped my pledge up. Hope it helps. :)
HaughtyPandaLove
2015-07-22 07:55
Hello,
Just popped in here today, through learnart as im looking to get more serious with my doodles. And just read through this post and some comments. Ive also been an avid listener of different graphic design podcasts, in which one of them, rhe caster offered a possibility for portfolio reviews at a reasonable price.
And as a suggestion to you, wanting to grow this into a viable business, this is a route Ive seen more and more of. Build up a good base of free available content and charge for premium non-essential content. As this community grows, and the users skill grow with it, i would bet a fair amount of money on that alot of the users would pay anywhere from 20-300 usd for a set amount of private time, e.g 30mins a day over 2 weeks or a bulk of time over a day. Or let the basics be free, then add advanced lessions for a small subscribtion fee. The possibilities are endless, as you said, if your goinf to build a new site with functionality for critique and peogress tracking, you are right to think its worth a compensation in some form.
Anyways, im rambling, gonna try some lessons and check out the donation thingamajig!
Last words: its awesome to contribute to the world and help people, but its also allowed to make a living doing it!
Edit: oops, just saw this post was old. Nvm!
Uncomfortable
2015-07-22 19:58
That was actually my initial intent, before I even started building a website around this stuff. I figured I'd start building myself up as someone that people would associate with cheap/free education, and then perhaps one day I'd start a small-scale mentorship.
Ultimately, I haven't been a professional artist for very long, and I still have a long way to go myself before I feel like I'll be ready to teach anyone one-on-one. Still, that's definitely something I'll be considering for the long term.
Limskaya
2015-07-30 07:58
Hey,
I've been doing lesson 1 and 2, but haven't really found the 'courage' yet to scan and post the homework.
But I do want to say you are doing excellent work! Not only are the lessons very helpful (and amazingly easy to get into), they are just the right level of detail. For beginners, this is such a big deal, because most learning-to-draw-books still have this part where magic happens and they don't explain all the steps.
As an educational scientist, I love how you are building up the programme and scaffolding people into not only gaining skill but also confidence.
Most of all, I admire how you keep this entry level. The fact that you don't charge money, is the main reason I am now donating. (Yay, my first Patreon gift ever!)
It is so important to make art available for those who can't afford education and you are doing amazing work. While in the future, I might invest in the Foundation Group, for now you are still my favourite master to learn from. You subscribe the (moral) principles I hold very nicely.
Sir, I tip my imaginary hat to you.
Uncomfortable
2015-07-30 14:49
I read this first thing in the morning, and it really brought a smile to my face. Thank you so much for your kind words, and thank you for your pledge on patreon!
jonbutler88
2015-08-09 20:22
In case you're interested, I tried out the first of Foundation's lessons, and after half an hour it became very apparent that the course is not for beginners. I guess there is an important distinction between the fundamentals you learn when beginning drawing, and the fundamentals that underpin more complex drawings. The latter is not a good place to invest time until you have a firm grasp of a lot of the concepts you teach with drawabox.
In recognition of this, I've pledged the money I would have put towards Foundation's lessons to you to help you run drawabox. I definitely feel it fills a gap that no other similar offering fills at the moment, so keep it up!
Uncomfortable
2015-08-09 20:54
I'm thrilled to hear that! And a bit surprised, to be honest. I'm starting to think that maybe I should pledge to Foundation, just so I can get a better idea of what is covered there, so I can better fit drawabox into the resulting gaps.
jonbutler88
2015-08-09 21:13
The thing about pledging is it drops you in the course wherever it is now, it doesn't get you access to all the content that was posted before you pledged. If you want access to that content, you have to pay again, you can get the archived content here at $8+ a term: https://gumroad.com/foundation_patreon
This isn't necessarily a problem, it's just that the Foundation course is not structured linearly (from basics to more advanced), but each video is a mostly self-contained dive into a particular concept or way of thinking about drawing.
Personally I wouldn't bother shelling out for access to Foundation. Your course is a fundamentally different structure, and one that is much easier to follow and better suited to beginners learning to draw.
Uncomfortable
2015-08-09 21:16
Thanks for the gumroad link, that definitely makes things a lot easier.
I find it really strange, to be honest - the patreon page talks about covering the basics of perspective, then dynamic sketching, and so on. But the actual lessons cover entirely different topics which, I agree, really aren't appropriate for beginners.
gleb_vga
2015-10-01 09:35
Hi!
To the topic at hand: After reviewing some other options, I still think the DrawABox is quite unique in it's cause and approach. You've clearly put a lot of thinking into making it understandable and well-structured, and it does the trick. Another thing is that you provide a somewhat different perspective on the learning of fundamentals, which is not accessible elsewhere, especially, in such affordable way.
It was a bit unexpected to learn that you were doing professional web development in the past. Encouraging, actually, as I'm taking a similar road - doing web development to keep a steady income, but looking into opportunities to move to game development.
I'm mostly working with front-end, heavy on JS, and do back-end with Python and a bit of PHP occasionally. If you ever need an extra pair of hands with the site, I'll be more than happy to contribute!
Uncomfortable
2015-05-27 13:14
Hah, thanks, I appreciate the kind words. I guess the main reason I'm concerned is that drawabox is far from being sustainable at the moment. I've been going to various lengths to work towards balancing the expenses and the hours put in against the income it's generated, and while it's certainly been improving over the past few months, there's a ways to go.
For now I'm mainly just voicing my concerns and keeping folks informed so there aren't ever any big surprises. That, and I really do think people should check out this new option, because at the end of the day, they are going to cover most of what I have, but they have the benefit of a much clearer understanding of the material. After all, I only studied dynamic sketching for three months.
I don't believe I would ever actually take the website down. Hosting is cheap, after all. Worst case scenario, if this Foundation Group thing really does impact the growth of the patreon campaign and the website's daily traffic, the main thing that would suffer are the critiques. I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people don't take advantage of those anyway, even though they're probably the biggest time investment on my part.
JohnyTex
2015-10-08 18:50
Honestly, if you released a book (e.g. a dead tree version of your website) I would buy it, partially out of convenience but also because I just like printed art resources more. I use my Kindle for everything except art books.
Uncomfortable
2015-10-08 19:17
That has crossed my mind, but for the time being it sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth. Maybe in the future, when I feel the lessons themselves are more solidified (I'm learning new things about what people struggle with in relation to each individual lesson).