Announcement: What would you want out of a dedicated ArtFundamentals website?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/2n10j9/announcement_what_would_you_want_out_of_a/
2014-11-21 22:16
Uncomfortable
So, first up - over the next few weeks, I'm going to be busy. I'll still be critiquing, but wait times for critiques may become more erratic. Still, if you don't get a critique within a day feel free to PM me, because the possibility of me missing posts or just plain forgetting to check will also go up. There also won't be any new lessons for a week or two.
Why will I be busy? 'Cause I'm finalizing my move to Halifax, Nova Scotia, where I've been hired by a small game studio. So that's good news. Once I've settled in, things will go back to normal.
Now, onto the main subject of this post. For a while now I've been tossing around the idea of making a dedicated website for the content I've been posting here. Things on the reddit side would still remain much the same (because it'd be hugely silly of me to move away from reddit - we'd lose 90% of our userbase and would probably cease to grow). I'd still post each lesson here, but instead of viewing the lessons on imgur, you'd see them on this hypothetical website.
Now that leads me to my question for the lot of you. If I move things to a dedicated website, I will be able to add in a slew of features that can make this whole operation more... interesting, and perhaps effective. When /r/ArtFundamentals began, it was very simple, and it still is - all I've really added were those badges that exist mostly to help me keep track of peoples' progression. Achievement badges would definitely be one of the features of this hypothetical website.
But what else would you guys want to see? If any features at all come to mind, feel free to mention them. Even if they sound ridiculous or impossible. I've worked as a full-time web developer in the past and I still keep up with new web technologies and standards, so I may know how to implement features that may seem outlandish.
Of course, all of this exists in maybe-land right now. I'm just throwing it out there because I'm starting to see some of the limitations of working strictly off of Reddit's framework, which gives plenty of exposure at the expense of usability and control.
Whirly123
2014-11-22 00:00
Massive congrats on the job placement mate! :) Hopeing to be you next year! A google hangout with demos would be good.
Still hoping to make content by the way. Just need to get through the course!!
Loads of step by steps with different animals, plants, vehicles etc would be awesome too.
I really hope you get more people in on this. The teaching created by Norm Schureman, Peter Han and Patrick Ballesteros seems to have such incredible results with people. Its taught at Art Center, CDA and even FZD School (with Scott Robertson style perspective on top.) It really is Concept Art education gold.
whosebubblesarethese
2014-11-22 05:39
Would it be possible to implement an account system where users could track their badges and keep a portfolio of sorts? I'm not sure how in depth you want to go but I think it would be a good way to gain long term commitment
Personally I'm still getting through the 250 box challenge haha I've been meaning to get into the lessons more
Good luck with your move, and congrats on the job offer c:
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 05:45
Absolutely. I'm not sure I'd necessarily want to include a portfolio section (I'd have to think on that) but traxkimg badges and homework submissions would be a cinch.
[deleted]
2014-11-22 10:32
I very much like the side bar and its list of the order to do the lessons. Just doing the first two have helped me a great deal (I should submit those for feedback). Something like that on the website would be useful.
Some way of directly connecting the bonus notes with the lesson that inspired them would be useful too. Or just connecting them to the lessons that they are relevant to.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 17:55
That's a very good idea. I try to include extra notes in the 'bonus content' section for each lesson, but the formatting in reddit makes it pretty hard to draw attention to those sections. I'll definitely be able to pull that off more effectively in a dedicated website.
tmku
2014-11-22 10:41
Hey, congrats on your job, you're a pro now! :)
A dedicated website is an interesting thought, but keep in mind the advantages of having everything laid down in one simple .jpg that you can move around, paste to another window in photoshop or effortlessly print.
Some of the things I think would benefit us the most (and that I personally would love to see addressed):
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Introductory lesson on measuring techniques, getting down the angles and proportions from references
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A dedicated lesson on perspective (since I believe it's such a fundamental subject) : In addition to the very cool extra curricular sheet on 1/2/3PP and the DS 6 lesson where we're moving and rotating the objects around in space, there are some things that still deserve their own lesson:
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When to use particular perspective and why
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Establishing and making use of the scale
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The use of perspective in architecture, interiors and environments
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Light/values (the basics: types of shadows, how the light is cast on flat/concave/convex surfaces)
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Composition (camera angles, choosing the right focal lengths for perspective, guiding the viewer's eye through the scene, the impact of tonal range and contrast. Personally I'd love to see a set of lessons on this since it's such a lengthy subject.)
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Color theory(again, the most basic stuff: color wheel, warm vs cold, shadows vs highlights and how they affect the local color)
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Materials (light/values continued: reflections, highlights, glossy vs matte)
I know the above makes for lots of material to cover, so treat it as food for thought more than anything else.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 19:00
Oh yeah, I'd definitely keep doing the lessons as single long-assed images, but I would probably redo a good deal of the content. Not only would that allow me to fix a lot of the mistakes that I made in those lessons and allow me to incorporate things I've learned about how these concepts can be taught more effectively, but it'd also give me the means to slowly replace the imgur hosted images with the new site.
I kind of chuckled to myself when I read the list of topics you'd like covered. They're all definitely great suggestions, and things I will definitely try approaching. To be quite honest though, I'd have to research a lot of that myself! Or perhaps by then I'd be able to bring in some other folks who might have a more technical understanding of things.
hushblessedchild
2014-11-22 12:39
Congratulations on the job Uncomfortable!
I think a site would be great, it would open up a lot of opportunities/possibilities.
First of all, I feel like actual forums lend themselves to this sort of thing better than reddit. We'd be able to share more of our work, ask more people more questions, build sticky threads full of useful information and excersises. The better illustrators can have tags or badges or whatever signifying that they are verified pro's, and they can offer critique when you aren't available.
You'd also be able to build libraries of resources submitted via forums or whatever.
You might even be able to have some monetary gains, which I think is totally fair and deserved.
All in all, a forum/seperate website would take some lessons, and turn them into a real community of artists who can learn from each other.
Of course, there are other possibilities separate from forums, but I know forums and I like them so, that's what I'd like to see!
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 18:08
Haha, I'm not going to lie - for everything I do, at least a small part of it is intended to make money at some point. Early on I was thinking that I could use this as a platform for setting up my own paid mentorships (once I actually gained enough confidence in my teaching skills to be able to deliver something of value). Opening up a dedicated website definitely lets me experiment with other possibilities, though.
Still, I love community-building, and nothing quite motivates you like the trust of passionate people.
Whirly123
2014-11-22 18:21
You have a knack for teaching, your crits are always great. I would be up to be mentored by you or if I ever get good enough mentoring :)
hushblessedchild
2014-11-22 18:28
You're a good teacher, if that's something you want to pursue, you definitely should. If I had the money I'd be happy to pay you for mentoring. There's no shame in that goal at all.
Communities are great, right now I'm looking to get involved with a community of artists, if this can turn into that I'm down to be one of the passionate people for sure. Apart from Twitter (and I rly use that to speak to devs and writers) I'm a lost soul floating around cyber space.
dranjo
2014-11-22 17:22
I come to Artfundamentals to learn new things, so I hope the website makes doing that easier than Reddit does. I think a sidebar showing relevant resources when viewing a lesson would be great. For instance when I'm viewing a 250 Box lesson, the sidebar would contain other related links and resources, similar to what we have in Reddit.
For your own convenience, you might want to give yourself a categorized inbox. What I mean is that people sending you a PM can tag their message (e.g homework submission/inquiry) and you'll know how much of each you're receiving.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 17:46
That's a good idea! I'm also probably going to design it so that the inbox doesn't automatically mark the messages as read/dealt-with once I've read them like reddit does. Often times I'll glance at the messages and critique them later... But since reddit marks them as read, this can lead to some of them falling through the cracks.
MightyMouse2817
2015-01-04 23:45
FYI, you can turn that off in Reddit by going to your preferences, and under "messaging options," uncheck "mark messages as read when I open my inbox".
[deleted]
2014-11-22 19:20
[deleted]
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 19:57
Ultimately I am limited to what I myself know, or have learned. There are some things I can teach in the topic of form language (which is a core part of general design, including characters, props, architecture, etc). My biggest strength is probably in environment/landscapes, so I can definitely go into that as well. As far as machinery goes, my skill is limited, but I have a few points that may be able to help in that area that can at least serve as starting points.
The lessons will definitely come in gradually though, so it'll be quite some time before we have a big library of lessons.
firststatejake
2014-11-22 22:58
Videos or screencaps of certain lessons would be cool just to see it worked out in real time.
An achievement system would be great for motivation and determination.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 23:53
I was actually testing out some recording software, learning the ins and outs of using it. I might move into doing some smaller video demos to accompany the rest of the content... not for a while yet though.
firststatejake
2014-11-22 23:55
Awesome. Just a tip (cuz a lot of online artists shit the bed on this), don't have the camera positioned so your hand is blocking the art.
It makes me want to throw buildings
HalleyOrion
2014-11-23 00:24
Congratulations on the new job!
For each lesson (or even each subsection of each lesson, for the ones that have multiple parts), I'd really appreciate being able to look through an anonymous gallery of people's submissions and have access to your responses to each of thembasically, the content of the comments you've posted here. Reading through your comments to other people is very instructive.
It would be especially nice if there were some way to filter the gallerye.g., to look just at the submissions you've made redlining corrections for, or to look just at submissions that got the perspective correct, but got proportions incorrect, or whatnot. I think seeing a gallery of very specific errors, side-by-side with a gallery that didn't make those errors, could really help people learn how to recognize the errors in their own work.
It would also be motivating to occasionally have people repeat an old lesson (say, after completing X number of more advanced lessons) and then to offer before-and-after comparisons to show how much they've improved. It's often hard to notice that you're improving, because it usually happens so gradually. (Note: A gallery of before-and-after images might be good for marketing, too.)
Another thing I think would be nice is "official" support for getting comfortable with tablet use. So, for example, if someone wants to get more comfortable using their tablet, maybe they'd be instructed to do X task on paper and then repeat it on the tablet. Maybe even some lessons specifically addressing common problems tablet users encounter (like practice drawing lines in different directions, since it's harder to turn a tablet than to turn a pad of paper) would be greatly appreciated by many, I suspect.
It would also be nice if members had a kind of "portal" page that listed all the lessons and extra curricular they've completed (and the number of times they've completed them), and the ones they have yet to complete (with links to the appropriate pages), just to help keep them organized.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-23 00:35
All very good ideas! I'm surprised I never considered creating exercises for getting used to working with a tablet. I'll definitely give it some thought.
starfries
2014-11-24 16:30
I have a couple of ideas!
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some sort of bonus/achievement for drawing something every day (or signing in a certain number of days per month) or even just a way to track how many days in a row you've done something. I know everyone likes to work at their own pace, but I find one of the most important things is to just develop a daily habit of doing something. I don't know how people feel about outright gamification but I think you can draw a lot of inspiration from the habit-forming tricks online games use to get people to perform an entirely boring task (grinding) for hours, day after day. Maybe even some random element (perhaps a random daily task you can do if you want, anywhere from drawing boxes to sketching) or some way to leverage that variable reward schedule that hooks people so well and use it to form good habits! I have a few more ideas along this line but it's starting to feel silly and I don't know if you want to go that far.
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I use quickposes and pixelovely for gesture drawing or even just to browse for things to draw but I wouldn't mind a third site with an image library, especially one integrated with achievements and with more customization options. Quickposes does some tracking but it's very basic.
I also want to let you know what I like about your current system, so you can keep some of this stuff in mind as you move forward:
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it's based on Reddit. There are dozens (hundreds?) of art sites with really good content and I have accounts on a few of them, but I hardly ever visit. Reddit is simple, I already have an account, and everyone's work is underneath the main post so I can just scroll down and see what they did and the feedback they got. I'm glad you'll continue posting the lessons on Reddit; you could also look into a bot to keep things coordinated (maybe one that keeps the comment section updated with ones you've critiqued, if users start submitting through your site instead of on reddit)
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it's free! I'm learning as a hobby and I don't feel dedicated or skilled enough yet to be spending money on a membership or lessons. I know you're a person with a life and we can't expect you to put in this much work forever for nothing in return, but I'm enjoying it while it lasts! I like the paid mentorship idea.
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you give quick and detailed feedback. It's really nice to know someone is looking at our work, especially with stuff like basic exercises (where are you going to find someone willing to critique 250 boxes?)
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achievements. I'd only get through 20 or so boxes if I was drawing for practice alone but I'll do 250 or more for a little icon! Or a grade, but grades aren't as fun as badges.
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it's NOT a video. Maybe a personal thing, but I don't learn nearly as well watching a video as I do reading. I can read faster than someone can talk, I can go back and forth and study a diagram at my own pace, I can skim the whole thing quickly if I need a reminder and people don't ramble as much in writing as they do in video. I might go over a written/illustrated explanation several times but I probably won't watch a video more than twice because of how long it takes, so I gain more just by sheer repetition.
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concrete exercises. It's fine to say "go practice this skill" and I might try it a few times before deciding that's good enough but something like "draw 8 pages of this and show me" really forces me to learn it.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-24 18:42
I feel the same way about learning from videos. I understand their value, but it's always nice to be able to learn something from diagrams and written explanations, at your own pace. I don't think I'll ever abandon that model - at most, I'll tack on extra videos... maybe.
I am pretty concerned about moving in a direction that takes me away from reddit. The access to a large userbase is so valuable. Still, I can't quite do a lot of the things I'd like to. Even the badges were a huge pain, and I can't easily add a bunch of badges to a user's name, because the method reddit forces you to use involves actually having a sheet of all the different permutations of badges. It's a real pain.
I think I'll hold onto reddit as long as I can - starting by changing where the lessons are hosted (but still posting them to reddit all the same), then slowly migrating the interactive/critique component to the website. We'll see.
[deleted]
2014-11-26 06:43
First of all. Congratz on the new job!
I really love to see a feature where users are motivated to post artwork on the website everyday. And also a tracking system of how many times users have completed a lesson. I.e Lesson 1 completed x times, etc
Uncomfortable
2014-11-27 16:40
That's definitely a good idea. Every februray, there's this thing some website (whose name I forget.. has something to do with soap? maybe? i'm not sure) hosts this daily-draw-february thing, and they keep track of whether or not people submit something every day. For some reason, just having that sort of system watching over your shoulder motivates me and my friends quite a bit.
Working in something like that - keeping track how often a person has posted something, and having it reset/tally at the end of the month, could be quite beneficial. I do think it's important though for it to reset after a certain period of time, so everyone can have a chance regardless of when they join.
dranjo
2014-11-26 09:56
Add a donations box so that we show our appreciation! But please don't make it obtrusive.
isleyso
2014-11-28 07:46
Congratulations on the job! :)
As you already have a large reddit fan base it wouldn't be a bad idea to use reddits OAuth2 services. That way we can all login with our existing reddit accounts...
Uncomfortable
2014-11-28 08:54
I didn't know that was a thing! I'll definitely look into it, that sounds like a great way to bridge the two worlds.
Floru
2014-11-28 20:30
Congrats on the job!
I know it's a silly feature and nothing too much towards your lessons, but perhaps add-in achievements?
Such-as, submit a complete assignment to wherever, get a badge! It may inspire some and/or give some motivation as an example, "If they can do it, I can too!"
Might also get a few cheers from some folk completing an assignment as well.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-29 21:33
I love badges. But I did incorporate badges/achievements for each lesson completion here on the subreddit (with some difficulty). Is that what you're asking for? Or is there something more to it that I missed?
Floru
2014-11-30 19:23
Nope! Pretty much the same on the new site. Maybe a way to see the not-achieved badges as well or maybe the next one in the list grayed-out? Ex. Suppose you started, you would see lesson 1 grayed out. Upon completing lesson one, it gets colored-in and the badge for session 2 appears grayed-out.
[deleted]
2014-12-28 04:04
long time lurker here. I would actually like a website/forum for 2D game art similar to what the Polycount forums are for 3D art. And yes Polycount has a section for 2D game art but we all know that Polycount IS and always will be about 3D.
Edit: Corrections.
Uncomfortable
2014-12-28 04:24
By 2D game art, I'm guessing you mean 2D assets as opposed to just concepts?
[deleted]
2014-12-28 04:29
Yes, but I wouldn't be opposed to concept art.
Archtikz
2015-01-04 22:07
Just for the aesthetics, I think a "submit homework" form would be great, where you can explain how you did things and troubles you may have had, and then select whether you want your work to be used as an example (To help others), and you can choose out of the people who said that they are up for their work to be used, and their work can be posted on a separate "examples" page. I know this works just the same as reddit, but it be quite dapper.
Zegmar
2015-01-19 09:13
Belated congrats on your new job!
As for your website:
How about putting up an often updated, daily or weekly archive of human figure models for us to reference while learning to draw?
Expanding from that, is possible for you to archive models based on categories like sports, dance, superhero action etc.?
Uncomfortable
2015-01-19 14:08
That would be a really handy thing to have. I'm not entirely sure it falls under the scope of what I can do at the moment (copyright issues with displaying others' photos and I definitely wouldn't take them myself), but I'll keep it in mind.
Zegmar
2015-01-27 08:09
Forgot to ask:
Would you also include caricature lessons?
Uncomfortable
2015-01-27 15:12
That'd be a bit tricky, since I don't know the first thing about caricatures.
[deleted]
2015-04-09 04:54
I would like to see an outline of the elements of art and then recommendation on the best books available on each of those elements. Also, a curriculum like you've created on the sidebar here. But one that goes beyond just drawing into rendering, animating, etc.
Uncomfortable
2015-04-09 15:05
Thanks for the suggestions! I'm definitely limited by what I know myself (you won't see any animation lessons unless someone else with that skill set is willing to put in the time required to create lessons and write critiques), but the plan is definitely to expand into other areas. Eventually I'm planning to reach topics such as form language/design, digital painting (rendering, colour, etc.), illustration (composition, storytelling). It'll definitely take some time, but I'll get to them eventually. Probably.
[deleted]
2015-04-09 16:21
That'd be great!
Grieffon
2015-04-10 20:00
Do you think you can have a lesson zero, where you don't really teach anything, but just ask people draw one item from each lesson in dynamic sketching? 1 plant, 1 insect, etc. And then at the end of each lesson, they can see how they have improved. It will be a good motivator.
Uncomfortable
2014-11-22 00:06
Ohh, building a library of step-by-steps would be really helpful. That's a great idea. I'll definitely keep that in mind. I actually just did another step-by-step example for /u/nugglebuggins, which I attached to the notes for Lesson 3 as bonus content.