Is it really alright to call Drawabox reddit "ArtFundamentals"?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/comments/10vcqru/is_it_really_alright_to_call_drawabox_reddit/
2023-02-06 17:40
s_nicole
Don't get me wrong, I think Drawabox is a great resource created with so much care put into it, I respect it a lot.
But this public image of Drawabox teaching fundamentals is simply wrong and misleading. It is not fundamentals, it's more like a sketching/constructional technical drawing course. And sure, some stuff taught in Drawabox intersects with topics that are considered part of fundamentals. But there's also so much missing that should be taught to beginners.
It's like....a very different approach to teaching fundamentals? And there's not enough explanation for beginners why they might want to consider to study fundamentals somewhere else?
I don't think that there's anything wrong with the course itself though. Uncomfortable, as any other teacher, has his own vision of what's important. His course, as any other course, has a focus on certain skills, while ignoring something else. That's exactly a reason why, for example, you shouldn't study just one anatomy course and forget about it. It's better to study anatomy again from another teacher, and another, and another. Each of them will shine a light on something new, even while teaching the same subject
I think Drawabox is great. It's just marketing it as fundamentals is very wrong. Tons of beginners getting stuck on Drawabox instead of also studying somewhere else, losing motivation because after so much boring practice they still don't achieve that they wanted to do and instead of trying another course, REPEATING drawabox because they believe that, why of course, it's fundamentals! They can't skip those, right? That's...unintentional artistic war crime lmao
P.S. I know that Uncomfortable put care into encouraging people taking other courses with Drawabox, as well as explaining that this course is more about construction than drawing from observation. I also know that the majority of people can't read and ignore the rules. (UPD: myself included, since I totally missed the subreddit's name history and why it's impossible to change it)
I dunno. I just saw this subreddit name and thought "Oh my god there's so much wrong with it". You shouldn't claim yourself as a single source of art fundamentals guys...... It's damaging for beginners who yet don't know how to navigate a complex world of artistic skills library.
Uncomfortable
2023-02-06 17:45
This is actually something I address in the stickypost at the top of the subreddit, but to put it simply here, if I could change the subreddit's name, I would.
/r/ArtFundamentals came first - I created it to have a separate place to share what I had learned in the courses I had taken, and the things I felt many of the folks on /r/DigitalPainting (a community I was active in at the time, giving feedback to people and such), were missing. So, I summarized the lesson material that had been most impactful to me, provided assigned homework, and provided feedback to the students who did that assigned work.
The overall goal of what the subreddit was for, at the time, was to introduce the concepts that students tended to be missing. That is, "the fundamentals" those people were being told to learn (without elaboration).
Over the years, in providing feedback to thousands of students, I've come to narrow the specific elements I felt were most important in this regard. There are many fundamentals, and so what we shifted towards covering was more the "core" fundamentals of drawing. Not the fundamentals of art as a whole.
By that point however, our membership was considerable, and reddit does not provide any option for renaming a subreddit, short of closing it down and starting a new one. Unfortunately that would have been a considerable loss for all we've developed here, so it's never really been an option we've considered.
For what it's worth, we do explain Drawabox's role, what we mean by the "core" fundamentals, and point students to all the other fundamentals that exist here in the first page of our first lesson, to help mitigate the uncertainty and confusion a beginner may have.
Edit: I say however too much, and also for anyone else responding, don't be rude. /u/s_nicole is voicing something that I have myself been concerned about, and I think it's an entirely valid point to make.
TheHolyFonz
2023-02-06 17:49
on the one hand i sortve see where youre coming from but really? i mean, really?
Youre worried about a hypothetical situation where someone doesnt like DrawABox but they keep repeating it because the subreddit name makes them think its more important than it is?
his website is called DrawABox. this subreddit is called ArtFundamentals. DrawABoxs mission is to teach the fundamentals of art. it doesnt need to be deeper than that
s_nicole
2023-02-06 18:01
I think there's a misunderstanding. My fault, I should've thought this post through before posting it.
The subreddit name is just the reason that made me angry and anxious to write this post. And as Uncomfortable already explained below, I'm just dumb for being angry about it lmao.
But even without this subreddit name, I still feel like a lot of beginners really think that this is the true fundamentals course. But you see, it's not how fundamentals are traditionally taught. There's other stuff for beginners to learn too. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with Drawabox, it's rather it's public image is what i disagree with
And yeah, I totally understand that public image is not something entirely under Uncomfortable control. Which is why I probably wouldn't post it at all if not for the subreddit name.
Time4uToBeEqualized
2023-02-06 18:13
Where can I learn the fundamentals of art? Im using drawabox but what resources should I also be looking at
s_nicole
2023-02-06 18:26
For free? I honestly don't know a good one besides Drawabox. Doesn't mean there isn't any though, only that I personally don't know about them
If you can spend some cash, Proko recently launched drawing basics course. It's good, I bought it myself. Would be a great pair to study together with Drawabox.
Besides that, I mostly studied at my country's online-school, so I can't provide much else based on personal experience
sockittoomie
2023-02-06 18:46
The Etherington Brothers have a site with a lot of free tutorials and a pretty big index
http://theetheringtonbrothers.blogspot.com/2019/01/all-200-how-to-think-when-you-draw.html?m=1
Mummelpuffin
2023-02-06 21:10
Can confirm that I got stuck in this exact loop, though, doing all this grinding instead of just drawing stuff and enjoying it first without caring whether it's anything approaching "professional work". I think that's the thing that isn't expressed enough. This is all geared towards people looking towards visual art as a big part of their career.
samanime
2023-02-06 21:47
If you want to see confusing sub reddits, check out r/trees and r/marijuanaenthustists.
The latter had the former already so the latter was born. :p
UnfortunatelyEvil
2023-02-06 22:23
And I think r/ AnimeTitties (a news subreddit) specifically chose that name because of all the bad stuff on "official" news subreddits. (Not linking because I am not 100% on the name and not in a place to safely check if it was a mistake xD )
But my favorite is r/superbowl not Super Bowl, but Superb Owls~
TootTwice4MeTonight
2023-02-06 19:34
The real question is: what're you gonna do about it?
edit: just a misplaced always sunny in philadelphia reference, no ill will was meant.
s_nicole
2023-02-06 19:44
Cry on reddit and apologize later for being wrong, obviously. But I already did that.
GoldSeafarer
2023-02-06 22:48
I somewhat agree with you, OP. I respect the course, and Uncomfortable as a great artist. However, I've been stuck in this very loop that you mention. Throughout the course, I slowly lost motivation, and this eventually seeped into my artistic feelings, which made me burn out from art itself for some months.
I am still thinking of whether or not I shall return to complete the course, and this is proof that the cycle you mention is definitely very real, despite what some people in this comment section are claiming/denying.
Nonetheless, I'm happy for all the people who liked this course and found wisdom and technique from it. But it is a little discouraging that I myself sometimes think that Drawabox might be the fastest and most efficient path to mastering the fundamentals, even though I'd prefer some different learning system.
Again, my biggest respects to Uncomfortable and all who finished the course, y'all are kings, and maybe I will try again.
artofnoc
2023-02-07 00:11
It happened to me, I also respect this course and the work behind it, this doesnt really fit with me and les me to just stop drawing for a year. Instead I followed the Peter Hans course on which Drawabox is based and it is less military, it combine really well learning curve with practice and enjoyment you get from your practice.
Gramernatzi
2023-02-14 10:57
Other methods will probably be slower, but a slower method is better than a method you eventually stop using. DrawABox is tailored to be as efficient as possible. And for a lot of people, myself included, this works best. But if it doesn't work for you, there is no problem with seeking out other methods of fundamental study that would work better for you. Don't feel bad about them being slower, you are trading speed for endurance. What matters is that you find something that works for you, and keeps you practicing.
prpslydistracted
2023-02-06 22:48
Ask yourself what artists did before the Internet, before DaB? If we were self taught and couldn't engage with college classes we haunted libraries. There are untold instructional books; keep in mind in depth exploration and what emerging artists can dive into is unlimited.
The public library is your friend; some Internet resources are too abbreviated to give constructive instruction ... you want detailed, why, base to elevated interpretation. You won't find that in a 20-30 minute video.
Dig deeper; in books ....
MerrowSiren
2023-02-07 01:52
If beginners are getting caught up on Drawabox that is their own problem, if you actually take the time to read/listen through the lessons instructions are given to explore other art techniques/teachings simultaneously.
At its core, Drawabox is the fundamentals of mark making. One cannot draw, paint, sculpt, etc without making marks, so I think it is very appropriately named.
If the practice is so boring as you say then maybe these are individuals that dont truly want to be artists they just want to have a casual hobby.
To be a master is to understand not only how to do something, but also why it should be done that way. I think in many ways Drawabox does just that.
earthcharlie
2023-02-07 06:12
You shouldn't claim yourself as a single source of art fundamentals guys
I don't think they've made this claim. Have you seen something somewhere that says this?
instead of trying another course, REPEATING drawabox because they believe that, why of course, it's fundamentals!
But that's the person making a decision, not DaB telling them that it's the only way. You see this in all areas of art.
s_nicole
2023-02-07 19:51
This is true. I shouldn't have said it like it was Drawabox fault. There's no resource to my knowledge that provides a whole "this is your learning path outside of this course" on a silver plate
Buuuuut still worth mentioning, since beginners do struggle with navigating their learning path the most and drawabox is very popular among beginners
earthcharlie
2023-02-07 20:23
Yea, it's definitely difficult to direct someone to the "perfect" beginner's course since what clicks with one person might not click with another. It's especially hard when it comes to drawing because there is so much information out there with regard to technique, process, subject matter, etc. The only real solution is to jack into the matrix and download all learning material into your brain.
Nuwisha55
2023-02-07 17:52
Kinda gatekeep-y. We're all trying to problem solve and get better. Any fundamentals in drawing is good fundamentals.
I don't think people get into drawing because they like drawing boxes. An experienced enough artist knows why it's important to draw boxes AND the things you love. I can draw horses like a motherfucker. I will throw down with anyone, anywhere, when it comes to a horse drawing competition. You want a good fucking horse? I will draw you one.
Do I then sneer at anyone who can't draw a horse? That they haven't done their fundamentals yet? Not if I want to talk to people in the art community at all, or those interested in drawing horses. As for me, I can't draw people, I can't draw cars. Still learning perspective but a lot better than I used to be. Learning how to draw a car will help me learn how to draw better horses.
Whatever you find that helps isn't bad, regardless of if it's frustrating. If it's frustrating, it probably means you're learning and getting better because that's how brains are wired.
Don't gatekeep about what art resource is allowed to be called what. We all mourn the death ConceptArt.org. But art has enough snobs without drawing chops trying to put other people down.
EDIT: You're frustrated by an exercise with 250 boxes? Tell me you need to draw more without telling me you need to draw more.
s_nicole
2023-02-07 19:43
Whatever you say dude, assume about my discipline anything you want to make yourself look better on the internet lmao. A shining knight bravely put down a weakling's opinion as he deserves, since his box peepee is too little to say anything meaningful
Ugh. I completed the challenge, okay?
I get why you're antagonised though. My original post is antagonistic, riddled with wrong assumptions and I regret that I didn't think it through. So any criticism and misunderstandings are expected. I am sorry, and I already explained myself in comments. I didn't edit original post since it would make a conversation under it confusing
I also explained what real reason of my frustration is
To put it shortly, drawabox is just several regions of a whole map of what's considered fundamentals. Beginners need to explore other regions too, or they'll struggle with achieving their goals. Instead what I often see, many beginners think about Drawabox as THE fundamentals. Like it's the only thing you need to get perfect at to move into advanced stuff. And once they don't achieve something, instead of seeking another course, they tend to repeat drawabox lessons, in order to improve their fundamentals, as if drawabox and fundamentals are one thing. It isn't, or rather it isn't whole fundamentals.
And this is what concerns me. Not the Drawabox course itself, it's great. But I'm concerned why it does have such public image, why students behave so despite Uncomfortable efforts to warn them, and what can be done to change it besides what was already done by Uncomfortable
While my original post is a mess, this conversation is worth discussing, since usually there's always stuff to improve upon. Like, I dunno, maybe an article that explains to students what kind of traditional fundamentals Drawabox doesn't provide, encouraging them to seek it out elsewhere, maybe even with links? That's just one idea of many possibilities
s_nicole
2023-02-07 20:54
I figured we can understand "fundamentals" differently so I'll give an example of what I mean
Let's take "Line" subject.
What Drawabox focuses on is teaching you the execution of the mark with confidence and precision. That's definetely a part of line fundamentals, your lines shouldn't be wobbly
But there's so much more important that is part of line fundamentals:
-
Line qualities, such as value, shape (how wide or thin it is) and edge (how soft or hard it is), and what lines can represent?
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What kind of logic happens, when skillful artists decide to change one of the qualities at certain parts of artwork? Based on what they make such decisions?
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How to correctly execute a mark while applying those quality changes?
These are just a small part of line fundamentals, and very simple too. But Drawabox entirely ignores that part of fundamental knowledge by deciding to use only finelines, which can't vary their value or edge, only shape at little extent. Almost all other graphic tools can though (pencils, ink pens, charcoal, digital brushes, etc)
Is this Drawabox fault? No, not at all. There're reasons behind that choice that I respect
Another example is shadows and lights, which I believe Drawabox doesn't focus on either, not in detail. And it is fundamentals. Shadows are not just "rendering" and making it look "more realistic". Shadows and light is how we decribe form, volume. So that's also an important part of fundamentals - both theory and execution
Again, does it make Drawabox worse? Hell no. As any other course, it has its own focus. But does Drawabox on its own teach enough fundamentals to a beginner? Kiiinda depends on beginner's goals, but generally, no. Neither it should.
Should beginners be aware that there's far more to fundamentals than they learn here? Should they study other fundamental materials together with Drawabox? I wish they would at least be aware. Don't know whether it's Drawabox's responsibility, but I already started this conversation here, so yeah
Again, the reason of my frustration is not the Drawabox, but tendency of some folks to repeat it instead of seeking new knowledge, since they believe Drawabox equals Fundamentals
Nuwisha55
2023-02-08 01:43
Drawabox equals Fundamentals
Drawabox does equal fundamentals. I don't know why you're here, wasting hours of your time griping about it, when a real artist would be drawing something. You're not making yourself worse by drawing boxes.
You've got a lot of work to do to get good. Complaining that one source of fundamentals is All Fundamentals is a Sisyphian task that smacks of procrastination and fear. Go draw more boxes, or something that makes you happy.
You can either waste your life complaining about labels, or you can draw. Which one are you gonna do?
s_nicole
2023-02-08 03:02
Not wasting time on people that disregard everything you wrote and come up with their own idea of what's actually a point of conversation.
Nuwisha55
2023-02-08 03:49
I don't even understand what your end game is here. Do you think you're gonna become a great artist or even a competent one by splitting hairs on what qualifies as fundamentals?
This Reddit vanishes. Poof. Are you a better artist?
I'm thinking no.
The rest of us are over here NOT smelling our own farts and instead are doing the fundamentals in some way.
s_nicole
2023-02-08 05:58
Look man, I get that, you like talking. But you might as well talk to a mirror at this point. You don't need my participation to imagine conversation scenarios where you're the based guy
Nuwisha55
2023-02-08 15:34
I like talking? I typed 2-page screeds about how some fundamentals aren't the and-all, be-all of fundamentals?
I'm the based guy who can draw better than you, so get crackin'.
I_hate_this321
2023-03-18 07:10
Seeing some of these comments... It's kinda of not surprising that the DaB community isn't as welcoming as it thinks it.
vigilanting
2023-05-26 05:20
Uncomfortable literally says in lesson zero the skills learned in Draw a Box are apart but not all of art fundamentals. He then proceeds to list the things not covered in the course, rendering lighting and shading.. He then goes onto provide a list of resources on concepts not found in draw a box, encouraging students to go look at them.
I really don't understand the point of this post.. maybe I should ask the op what you think art fundamentals are if not this? Because I think concepts taught in draw a box are absolutely essential to every artist, and you are going to be learning it either here or elsewhere. Uncomfortable never said draw a box is end all be all for art fundamentals.
s_nicole
2023-02-06 17:52
Ok, I didn't know that it's not possible to rename the subreddit, so I'm entirely in the wrong here. I am sorry that I let out all of this frustration before understanding what are the actual reasons.
Uncomfortable
2023-02-06 17:54
You needn't worry at all. I think it was an entirely valid point to raise. These days I regret a lot about that name - even the word "Art" is itself a misnomer, as drawing is not inherently art. It's a tool we might use to make art, but over the years I've come to believe that in always talking about drawing as "art" it's created a really messed up perception of what it is we're doing in this community.
s_nicole
2023-02-06 18:10
I still feel bad about some of my choices of words, you don't deserve it. My mistake was to write it while being emotional.
You're a great dude and teacher, and I owe you some of my training. I know you have a great burden of leading thousands of beginners, and honestly out of respect I should have voiced this concern better.
Again, Drawabox is great. I never had trouble with course itself. The real reason I got frustrated was seeing some beginners not moving on to different courses and teachers, choosing instead to repeat all of the lessons which, yeah, don't contain all of the fundamentals some people may require.
Uncomfortable
2023-02-06 18:11
I appreciate the kind words! And that is honestly something that bothers me too. As much as I can, right up at the beginning of the course, I stress that students shouldn't see Drawabox as this thing they need to conquer before they're allowed to indulge in other things - in drawing the things they want to draw, in taking other courses, etc. It is definitely a struggle though, as people are inclined to stick to their comfort zones, and when you offer them something that'll hold their hands for a while, they're hesitant to let go.
Gramernatzi
2023-02-14 10:53
Might be worth adding this as a link into the sticky. It could help in the future if someone else has the same question.