25 wheel challenge - concentric elipses

5:12 PM, Sunday November 22nd 2020

Dear Drawabox community,

yesterday I watched the how to draw a wheel video by Uncomfortable and one thing started bothering me. At around the 6 minute mark Uncomfortable started talking about concentric elipses.

So, if we are drawing a wheel we want our elipses to represent circles in 3D space, right? But if two elipses share the same center (on a flat, 2D page), one of them does not represent a circle in 3D space. Here's why:

By sharing the same center (and degree, since it is on the same plane), the smaller elipse would fit perfectly inside the bigger one, creating no foreshortening. If there is no foreshortening, one of the elipses cannot represent a circle in 3D space.

To prove my hypothesis, I drew two perfect concentric circles with a drawing compass (here's the picture https://imgur.com/a/nZ6Rvba).

I proceeded to tape this piece of paper on my door and took a photo of it at an angle - now our circles have become elipses since they are in perspective (here's the picture https://imgur.com/a/AYiez2T). The foreshortening is very obvious here.

I then tried adding a minor axis to the two elipses by eyeballing it (I do not know of a mathematically reliable way of doing this, but I think I wasn't off by too much) - here's the picture: https://imgur.com/a/voLmeuq - you can see that the two elipses share the same minor axis but they both have a different major axis, which means they cannot have the same center (on the flat 2D page).

I realise this is very nitpicky of me, but I can't help it. I still feel like doing concentric elipses in a wheel kinda flattens it out.

This is preety much as far as my understanding goes regarding this topic (please let me know if I was wrong anywhere up to this point). I am however super curious about how one could draw a completely accurate wheel (perfect placement of elipses).

I feel like I could draw a free-floating wheel by reverse-engineering the last image I attached - if I knew how to draw a perfect square in perspective (which I don't xD). Drawing a wheel that conforms to the other masses of the car is an entirely different kind of beast because the box containing the cylinder cannot be arbitrary (my brain hurts even thinking about how to approach this).

So yeah, I've been long enough. If you know about any learning resources regarding this topic please let me know. And lastly, this is just for my personal interest, I know that the Drawabox course won't hold me to this insane standard - close enough is what we aim for here ;).

Cheers,

MisterSpades

P.S. Uncomfortable, if you are reading this I want to let you know that I have not started drawing the wheels yet, I'm waiting to get a pass on lesson 6 like a good boy :D

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8:20 PM, Sunday November 22nd 2020
edited at 12:32 AM, Nov 23rd 2020

I am not really sure what your point is, but I can answer your question regarding the “mathematically reliable way of” finding the minor axis: Look for the largest and shortest diameters of each ellips and you will find the major and minor axes.

I took your picture, rotated it in PowerPoint to add perfect ellipses and the major and minor axes (first image), and rotated it back to how you drew it (second image):

https://drawaboxchallenger.wordpress.com/circles/

The major axis of an ellips divides it symmetrically. It has nothing to do with the center of the circle. I think your point is that they are concentric circles in perspective, not concentric ellipses, which is how Uncomfortable describes them.

These are concentric ellipses (having a common central axis):

https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/42600/42661/conellipses_42661.htm

So now, I do think you have a point, but it might depend on how one defines the word concentric , that is what is the center point: an object’s axis disregarding perspective (like in the second example) or with context in mind such as perspective (your/my example).

edited at 12:32 AM, Nov 23rd 2020
10:31 PM, Sunday November 22nd 2020

Hey man, thanks for taking the time to respond. My point is that doing concentric elipses on a wheel is wrong, since the elipses should represent circles on a wheel. It is however a very minor thing, but the lack of foreshortening flattens the image out.

The second purpose of this post is to find learning resources which describe this topic in great detail. I want to understand how one would go about drawing two concentric circles in perspective with complete mathematical accuracy.

12:30 AM, Monday November 23rd 2020
edited at 9:12 AM, Nov 23rd 2020

If you look back at my edit of your wheel in perspective, as far as I know, the major axis can be found if you look at the square in perspective, and take the absolute width of the drawn square (without considering perspective). The major axis shouls lie there, because it divides the left and right part of the foreshortened square evenly. The minor axis is perpendicular to the major axis and you're done.

The only thing is that you need to draw a square in perspective in the first place. As of yet, I do not know a mathematical way for that.

The opposite, however—creating a square in perspective from an ellips—is an option. Currently, I can only imagine the steps, but I think they are correct:

  1. Draw an ellips (narrow horizontally, wide vertically) and draw a vertical line A that is larger than the height of the ellips, and lean it on either side (it should hit either the left or right part of the ellips).

  2. Create the square’s horizontal lines by drawing them from both ends of line A to a vanishing point to the opposite side while hitting the top and bottom of the ellips.

  3. Create the square’s other vertical line by drawing it next to the other part of the ellips.

  4. You’ve drawn a perfect square in perspective. This is for one-perspective. I think that more steps are needed for two-point (or three-point) perspective.

I will see what I can do later today. I could create examples for each mentioned step and see if my theory is correct. I do know that a circle (which with context is a sphere, obviously) should always fit perfectly inside a 3D cube (drawn on a 2D plane). That logic made me think that an ellips should always fit inside a square edge.

EDIT: I think this tutorial will help you a lot!:

https://youtu.be/h0HrmywKzFk

And this is the geometry behind it that you’re looking for:

https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/perspect3.html

edited at 9:12 AM, Nov 23rd 2020
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7:55 AM, Monday March 22nd 2021
edited at 4:24 PM, Mar 22nd 2021

So, what you are correctly identifying here is that there is the center of an ellipse, and then there is the center of the circle in perspective that the ellipse represents. In the same way the X finds the center of the plane in perspective but if you were to take a ruler and divide up sides of the quadrilateral into equal lengths you'd get a different center. The major axis of the ellipse does not necessarily go through the perspective center of the of the circle.

So you asked for more info on this. The first time this clicked for me was when watching Marshall Vandruff's 1994 perspective course. He pointed this out and referenced the Perspective Drawing Handbook by Joseph D'Amelio, pages 83 and 84. I found images of them for you: https://imgur.com/a/1P4X2iK

Notice where the bucket handles attach on the bottom left of page 84. The difference is due to the forms converging to vanishing points. Just like a box's edges, the length of rim closer to the viewer will be larger and the further will be smaller, causing the discrepency.

edit:

As for how to more accurately place the inner circle, you could do a plan projection of both confining squares like the diagrams show here: https://www.joshuanava.biz/technical/i-hli.html That would be the most accurate, but it is a lot of work.

Or decide where one corner of the inner plane is located, then mirror that one corner's location to the 3 otherspots by using the parent plane's diagonals. A square's corners, when centered in another square should always fall on the larger square's diagonals and the corrosponding sides should be parallel. So you can get by with picking a point on a diagonal, drawing the side of you box to the corrospoing side's vp, see where that new side intersects the next diagonal, and repeat. When you get the inner square mapped you can draw in a smaller ellipse the same way you did the larger.

edited at 4:24 PM, Mar 22nd 2021
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6:30 PM, Monday November 23rd 2020

Your assessment there is more or less correct - the ellipse inside would need to be shifted back slightly, and in order to maintain the minor axis' alignment to the vanishing point, its orientation would have to shift a little as well. The degree does remain the same, however. I've done a little analysis of your image here. The X's mark the center of each ellipse, and the points along the outside represent the minor and major axes. The fainter red ellipse is drawn around the blue ellipse's center (no offsetting), and the green one is offset correctly.

While it is true that Drawabox focuses on 'close enough', this was technically an unnecessary mistake on my part, so I'll keep it in mind when I get around to rerecording the wheel challenge demo.

6:09 PM, Tuesday November 24th 2020

Hey! Knowing how busy your schedule is, I really appreciate that you responded to my post. I must admit that I don't understand why the orientation of the smaller elipse would have to shift slightly - I thought that both their minor axis' would lie on the same line.

I flipped through Scott Robertson's ''How to draw'' book in search of answers. I couldn't find any explanations (maybe I will once I actually get around to studying the book), but I did a little experiment. I placed my elipse guides on the wheel of the car on page 183 to find that both elipses have the same minor axis - or maybe I wasn't precise enough.

Anyways, I think I'm kinda missing the forest for the trees here by going into such depths for such a small piece of information. I should probably let it go for now and eventually revisit this topic when I'm equipped with more knowledge and a fresh mindset.

3:56 PM, Wednesday November 25th 2020

The ellipse was moved back and up slightly - that movement upwards means that the angle of that minor axis, in order to still converge towards the same vanishing point, would have to be reoriented slightly.

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